Ship Replacement Idea & Theory

[Mangala]

So, we are moon miners again. Hrod is making us slightly more richer

One of the aims for this project is ship replacement for pvp losses (Not PVE, you lose a ship in pve to npc's, thats your own fault or the servers ), so I think we need to figure out what we want such a program to cover.

From what I can glean from chats with others around the universe, there are a number of different programs we could seek to emulate:

1. Hull only. For T1 it means YOU insure your ship, you get the isk when it dies, corp repays your Platinum level insurance and you then get a new ship either internally or from market.  Given how plat level will effectively give you more than the value of your ship at current market rates, you get free isk.  For T2 its flat out replacing the ship from market (or internal industry if possible) after it dies, as even insuring it at play gets you only pocket change.

2. Hull+Mods.  As above, but corp lays in a hangar full of t2 modules, and people replace lost modules from there.  Seems to work with a handful of commie corps, but otherwise is abused alot, unless said hangar is offlimits unless you have rights via title or roles.

3. Cap Ships. Seems most cap programs use a hull only system ala the T1 mentioned at point 1. Caps are usually built in house and sold at pretty near cost to members and when they die they get a new one.  Other programs provide caps and replace as they die regardless of cost to members, so basically you get a free ship and then the payback when you lose it from insurance (for example insurance on a dread will get you its base mineral cost which is a hard figure set by ccp, not related to market value at all). ie: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/market.php?group_id=762 ).

There is probably others I have heard or/know anyone who uses such, but these seem to be the main ones.

So, given our income (Hrod numbers please!), what would you folks want from a SR program?

[Warcold]

On a quick glance, option 3 sounds way too steep for a casual corp like us.
option 2 might be too steep too, i might even go for a leaner option 1: T1 only or 'T1 and T2-upto-a-certain-hullsize'.

yes we got quite a nice sum in the bank right now, but mebbe go easy on it till this whole alliance-and-pvp idea fleshes out a bit. might be a better idea to use a bit to make these corp shares worth something again and most of the rest to beef up corp cash a bit more.
in short: i don't think we should use all our income for this ship program, mebbe just a small (25-ish) percentage and see what's possible from that. it's easier to pump up the volume than to tweak it down. all imho ofc

[Kathras]

Option 1 sounds reasonable.  Option 2 sounds doable as we have a smaller corp and can probably trust people to only reach into the piggy bank when necessary.  It might not scale with more members or with the alliance as a whole.

Id vote option 1. 

[peo]

Numbers are in flux atm
I'll have something more firm on monday when I'll haul 3 weeks of production. However the profit of the single tower for one month has fluctuated around 6-800m.
I'll set up more towers and when I get a rorqual I'll look into 0.0 moon goo mining. (for discussion in other threads )

Cap replacement will be there eventually. But that will probably be paying the insurance cost I suspect or build in house in either case for now we don't have to worry about that as we don't have a alliance cap fleet anyways.

In any case I (without having firm numbers right now) think we can fairly easily handle up to 1.5bn in loses when the second tower is running. I'll probably skim a bit from the profit for the cap skills program as well.

Easiest is option 1 to start with and perhaps add some extra cash for mods if t2 fitted or some fixed sum say 10m extra beyond insurance on a bs?

We can always change if things don't work as planned

[Mangala]

I do think at this stage option 1 is the best for us.

Breaks down that all the corps outlay would be is the repayment of the members Platinum Insurance, as right now (and for the past year or so) Platinum Insurance on a Tech 1 hull pays out more than they retail for across space, more than they get built for.  This is down to CCP having hardcoded a base value into the system.  Base values can be seen here: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/market.php?group_id=4  Just click on each type and so on to see the base value and thats what you get back from insurance at Platinum.

For a T2 fit, T1 loss you effectively wouldnt lose anything. As the base value is higher than retail/build as things currently stand.  The corp repaying your insurance would enable you to refit your shp and probably still have isk left over.

Regards T2 ships losses, Hrod's suggestion of the corp passing extra funds over is one I'd tie into this given that T2 ships dont insure in the same profitable way their T1 variants do.  The corp could, in my opinion buy a member who lost a T2 ship a replacement vessel (or provide the Jitamart isk value of said ship), together with a maximum of 20million isk to replace the fit (This would allow them to replace some modules, but use their own funds for the rest until such time as we can fully replace T2 for those members who would take advantage of this?).

[peo]

Just came to think of it
Clones, this only really applies to B/C so far but having a cost of clone replacement could be a good idea perhaps?

[Mangala]

Just came to think of it
Clones, this only really applies to B/C so far but having a cost of clone replacement could be a good idea perhaps?

Good idea - maybe have an SP threshold where we'd repay that though?  As most clones are cheep!

[peo]

Just came to think of it
Clones, this only really applies to B/C so far but having a cost of clone replacement could be a good idea perhaps?

Good idea - maybe have an SP threshold where we'd repay that though?  As most clones are cheep!

Yup, and ofc not implants

[peo]

Well we have a couple of ships to replace now

[Mangala]

Just seen

Remember - insurance cost (not mathing insurance payout - also add a note to the payment so we can track it) only for T1 hulls and T2 is current market value of said hull + 10mill extra for fit.  I'll do an actual scale for t2 ships + fit replacement when I get up.

I expect a battle report in a seperate thread.

Now im going to bed.

PS EVEMAIl me to remind me to change a wallet to ship rep.

[peo]

I'll start here (might deserve its own thread)

Ship:Baseprice:Platinum Insurance cost

Battleships:
Abbadon:180000000:54000000
Apocalypse:112500000:33750000
Armageddon:66250000:19875000
Rokh:165000000:49500000
Raven:108750000:32625000
Scorpion:71250000:21375000
Hyperion:176000000:46500000
Megathron:105000000:31500000
Dominix:62500000:18750000
Maelstrom:145000000:43500000
Tempest:103750000:31125000
Typhoon:75000000:22500000

[peo]

Made a post (could be stickied perhaps )

Included carriers for future reference. I don't know what a carrier costs to equip. But given normal t2 stuff the insurance and us building the ship for mineral+blueprint costs (bpc that is) should make them fairly similar to battleships (while on a larger scale).
I guess drones and fighters should be included though. This is more for the future, while we still can replace the odd one now and then in this way we don't have the resources for it continuously. At a glance the replacement cost of a chimera including fighters (16@15m) would be about 460m. (insurance + fighters)

However if we build and sell to corpies at cost the cost of the chimera is atm about 536m, would we get all the bpos needed the cost would be 476m. Which means the chimera+fighters when we build it costs about 776m, payout is 733.8m so insurance+100m should more than cover new chimera+fighters and mods given nothing extravagant which would mean that a chimera replacement plan would cost about 320m/lost chimera which we aren't that far off from being able to afford.

I do however wonder about the second month of insurance... It does become significantly more expensive if the chimera lives for more than one month (for someone, either corp or pilot) so perhaps a capital replacement should be based on "base insurance"?

Random thoughts on a matter which we have to deal with sooner or later.

[Warcold]

Made a post (could be stickied perhaps)

done

[peo]

Well, the insurance changes are in (I haven't had a opportunity to really check into them or anything else).

What changes do we need to make to the replacement program?

Could the best way be to build replacement ships in-house and hand them out? Let insurance cover fits?
I think Saf said a pest cost 20m to insure and got 68m in payout so 48m to cover a fit?

[peo]

Had an idea for how cap replacement could work.

Think of it as a internal "noobship" program or insurance if you will.

Firstly, serious cap replacement is primarily needed for larger campaigns, not so much for the random tower killing or hot drop. This is the important basis of it all that we need to not only be able to replace ships but we need to do that on a "campaign basis".

What I mean by that is that people loose multiple ships over a fairly short period of time. So having to jump all around eve or take 2 weeks to build it doesn't cut it.

This is of course only applicable when we have a large enough income but never hurts to be prepared. (I've set this at 3bn for now)

So this is how I envision it:
Out of the 3 bn/month profit we make from moons we dedicate the major part for capitals. I think 2bn/month should suffice and give us more than enough isk for normal pvp replacement as well.

When a pilot becomes cap capable he should buy a cap at full price (yes market price) from the corp. This is a "buy in" to the program and should ensure more loyalty as well.

The 2bn set aside for capitals are constantly used to build capitals. Basically we store capitals instead of isk. It has a few advantages, capitals are easier to "hide" (containers etc which not everyone will have access to) and it means we have ships available when they are needed.

When the pilot goes out and is blown up (on sanctioned ops only perhaps??) he gets back to wherever we have storage and is contracted a new capital free of charge.
Insurance etc is up to the pilot but he will have to outfit the ship himself so I suspect it will cover that cost.

Basically it will work like a noobship replacement thing (we can even throw in the gift of 1 trit )

Given that we won't be losing or using many capitals to start with I suspect we would end up with a decent stockpile for the first campaign.

As I said the big thing here in my opinion is that this would ensure we always (probably/hopefully) have capitals when we need and want them.

Another bonus is that it means we will have capitals to build for people that enjoy that sort of thing (me included) without having to bother with the markets for sales. This is of course not a major thing but well, it is a bonus.

Hope this idea isn't that crazy? Or is it to generous?