Author Topic: covering cost of living in fountain using reactions  (Read 1934 times)

Offline peo

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covering cost of living in fountain using reactions
« on: July 04, 2009, 08:13:44 PM »
Been trying to look into a simple way for us to get enough cashflow to pay for most expenses in fountain without requiring huge amounts of time and or effort.
The only way is moons.

First a cost of living in fountain has to be established.
I've estimated this at about 800m/month in fuels and fees (lower when mangs donates time to mine but none-the-less), I would ofc prefer if we were substantially above it but first things first.

Second I've used a inventory of the moons I know of and the minerals together with the simple reactions they make, there should be enough room for one reactor and silos with some effort on the z30 pos we will however need more than that to be able to get the profit up high enough.

As I've noted in the material acquisition thread there are only a few reaction involving what we have that seems to be profitable.
1. Alchemy (using chrom together with either van or cad)
2. Simple reactions, there are only two that has any kind of reasonable profitability currently. Ceasarium Cadmide and Platinum Technite, there are a few more but most are way out of our league currently.

The profitability of the alchemy reactions are similar but making hyperflourite is slightly worse than prometium. So best option is to buy cadmium to make that.
The profit should be with perfect refine:
10*80000+95*6900-100*6900=765500isk/h = 551m isk/month
Note that most of the cadmium is returned in the reaction, this would pay for that majority of the expenses and is simple to set up.

If the alchemy reaction is the base earner for us (it is reasonably simple to switch to another alchemy if prices change for some reason) then we need one more to pay for the rest.
Given that we want to have as few poses as humanly possible, less work, the best option is to use something we already have access to this would be caesium.
The problem is that we would need another pos, minium medium, to run the second reaction-
Caesium has one reasonably profitable reaction, Caesarium Cadmide, the other (solerium) is completely worthless as we can sell the ingredients for more than the reaction.
Profit from reacting caes-cad is:
200*4900-100*6900=290000 isk/h = 208m isk/month

We would in either case as noted need one more pos to make this possible.

The end result would be a income (after cad purchases) of about 750m isk/month, added expenditure (pos costs) would be about 90m isk/month so a total net profit of 660m isk/month from this.
Sadly to be able to run both a reactor and harvester (that doesn't feed said reactor) you would need a large tower which adds much more investment and running costs.

The total investment costs should be around 305m (1 med tower, 2 reactors, 6 silos and the reactions).

When this is setup the second stage should be to get the profit up a little more ofc, simply since the profit from these two reactions are a bit short of the goal.
The easiest would be to make more caes-cad since there are plenty of caes moons free in fountain. We would ofc have to clear this with alliance lead but well can't understand what problems they might have with it.
Focusing on these two reactions has the added advantage of simplicity, no need to import other minerals than Cadmium. The profit for each caes-cad reaction after the med pos would be about 110m isk/month.

The other option would be to use platinum-technite which has about the same profit margin but of course needs poses at plat moons and import of technetium.

I think that especially with the increasing costs of membership in EZ having this set up as soon as we can would be highly beneficial to us. It would remove a large part of the wallet problems we are having and let us get on with profit from manufacturing to improve the corp and members over time.

I'm not sure why I wrote this but since it would require a bit more effort from everyone in fountain (keeping tabs on poses with reactions and fuels) it would be nice to have a consensus on it. In either case I think we need to seriously consider it.




Offline peo

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Re: covering cost of living in fountain using reactions
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2009, 05:43:27 AM »
One consideration I forgot to mention is cost of materials for first month.
The alchemy isn't as important as you get back most, given a non perfect refine (only the 4% tax I have in mn5) we would lose about 9 cad per cycle.
One week of cad (16800 units) would cost about 116m however it would last about 2 months.

For the other reaction however the cost is higher since there the cad is used up at once, 497m isk/month of course this is included in the profitability calculations but the importance is in isks we have to tie up in the production. The cost of cad can make other reactions "better" since it would be easier to afford a month of materials.

Offline Mangala

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Re: covering cost of living in fountain using reactions
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2009, 04:51:51 PM »
Very well thought out - i'd point people at this thread to get a read on everyone else's thoughts hrod.  I havent had much chance to give it some deep thinking, but on first, admittedly very sleepy glance, I cannot see anything wrong with this, although does require those of us playing currently to step up and put some more effort in, dont want it all on your head :)
"May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk."


Offline peo

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Re: covering cost of living in fountain using reactions
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2009, 05:47:12 PM »
Main thing needed is to keep reactions fueled. Not that much more.
I did some more thinking and realised that it might be possible to not have to increase the number of pos'es we have if we can get SoT Ok on switching the small chrom mining tower to a medium one for the chrom/cad alchemy reaction. It should be about 10m cheeper per month in fuelcosts and more importantly reduce the number of places to keep track of.
However that is dependant on SoT approval.
Unless someone opposes I'll start making preparations for us to have this setup shortly. (ie buying and moving stuff in high sec to pash to get in on darths next move.

Offline peo

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Re: covering cost of living in fountain using reactions
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2009, 12:24:37 PM »
Ok, no objections, I'll buy whats needed and move to pashanai as soon as I can.

Offline peo

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Re: covering cost of living in fountain using reactions
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2009, 06:09:54 PM »
Ok slight change of plan :)
We have a second chrom moon with a medium tower on it. This means we can run two chrom+cad alchemy reactions. Which should mean a profit from the reactions of in total 1.1bn.
We have 4 poses, the running costs should be around 200+100+70+70=440m/month.
The fees to the alliance adds up to something around 600m/month so we would cover the costs and have some change.

Offline Mangala

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Re: covering cost of living in fountain using reactions
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2009, 06:25:24 PM »
currently 15 x 30 or so - 450mill pm to alliance +50 for office too;

So covered easily it would seem?
"May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk."


Offline peo

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Re: covering cost of living in fountain using reactions
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2009, 02:05:50 PM »
currently 15 x 30 or so - 450mill pm to alliance +50 for office too;

So covered easily it would seem?

Yes.
I'm working on ideas for a potential future JB node. We can't afford the investment right now (900m for 2 large and 2 JB).
However I'm thinking about trying to get the vanadium moon in z30 as one end for it, a large caldari tower can fit a JB, mining array, 2xsilos, coupling array and simple reactor to do the van+chrom alchemy reaction which gives around 500m as well in profit (if we don't have to buy van).
Add to this a caes+cad reaction which gives around 200m in profit we should be able to get 1.3bn in income from the reactions which should cover the running costs for the node and our other poses and the membership fees.
I would estimate the costs at around 1.2bn/month then.
500m to alliance (which hopefully will increase with some more people in fountain ;) ) and 655m for pos maintainance, not including the ozone for the JB node though which is hard to estimate but I seriously doubt it can be 100m and if it is I'll figure out what to do with the second large tower we need which should be able to carry it's cost in some way (druglab perhaps?)

Offline peo

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Re: covering cost of living in fountain using reactions
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2009, 05:25:22 AM »
Ok the first reaction is up.
Has enough cadmium for one week, will check if all my calculations are correct soon by taking the already produced unrefined and refine it.
It will show potential losses in tax and refining which in turn will decide the exact profit margin and how long we can run the reactor on the available cadmium.
More cadmium will be needed relatively soon though.

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Re: covering cost of living in fountain using reactions
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2009, 07:47:11 AM »
Well I brought in the first small batch for reprocessing.

The yield is sadly not as good as I thought at first, or more exactly there are losses and tax that affects the prometium yield.
When refining the 11 we had it would have given a loss of 4.2% (coincidentally the same as for frying modules).
However when refining 1 it has no prometium loss.
So I did a small  experiment, I split all of the unrefined into 1 unit batches and guess what... That removed the loss :) even when refining them in one large group.
Still 4.2% loss in cadmium but none in the prometium, which saves about 6m per week.

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Re: covering cost of living in fountain using reactions
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2009, 02:12:19 PM »
Both reactions are now up and running at full speed.
The production is 20 prometium per hour at the cost of about 20 (18 or 20 don't remember right now) cadmium. Given that the most common sellorder in Jita is about 75k isk/unit of prometium and the cost of cadmium is about 6900 isk/unit we are currently producing 1.36m/h or 980m/month. (not counting cost of moving and selling in jita)

Both reactors have about 4 days or cadmium in store as I bought 10k more in fountain today and split between them. It will last for much longer with the effort of refining in fountain and moving cadmium. It is a bit of a pain but the most annoying part is splitting all the unrefined up into 1 unit stacks :)

Anyway, this production should unless prom prices crash and or cad prices skyrocket cover most of our expenses from here on.

Offline Mangala

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Re: covering cost of living in fountain using reactions
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2009, 02:16:23 PM »
wowee. you sir are a true scholar and way more patient than I :)

Great work!
"May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk."