Hands of Justice
What we have played => EVE Online => Topic started by: Warcold on January 27, 2009, 01:20:26 PM
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Let's get some preasure off the Tech 3 thread, and keep things findable at same time.
The changes coming with the M10 expansion will have implications for skills that are handy to have, come all the changes.
There are prolly ppl around here who know better (and that's a good thing ;)), but let me give my amateur view of things.
Going to w-space will be like going to 0.0, plus from what I have read, NPC's can be very tough. Ppl will need good tanks, miners too. (as stated by Rub)
We will need ppl who can find the wormholes and scout the w-space behind it.
We will need ppl with big GUNZ. From what i've read in in-game channel HICs and HACs are recommended.
We will need logistics to keep us going there, and maybe even set up a POS -> orca-pilots? rub also recommended that some more ppl skilled in anchoring.
And we need good miners ofc.
Ofc, we need ppl who fill the roles too.
Combat pilots: We already got some, beo has some well skilled char(s), prolly Rub too. I know Akamine is training for HAC and me myself (Saf) too.
Scouts: Although some of the newer pilots might be tempted to train their chars for scouting (I am for one), my opinion is that we better have all pilots good at their own thing, rather than a lot of pilots mediocre at a lot of things. As I see it, in short term, we rather have newer ppl fulfill their short/medium term goals, (HAC + 2ndary skills for Saf for example) and depend on the ppl who are already skilled in scouting for the finding of wormholes and such (Constantine for certain and one of beo's chars? mebbe Rub has one too?). Once ppl are established in the role of their first choosing, they can also skill in scouting too.
I'd like to hear other's opinions about this though.
Miners with tanks: We got quite some nice miners in our group I think. Aicha will prolly be ruled out, as she will be transferred to Saf's account (so no more skilling and no running both chars simultaneously)
Orca-pilots: Rub/Beo. However, I've named those two names quite often now, I dont see em running 3 accounts effectively at same time...
Anchorers: Pretty easy skill to pick up at the side, 20-ish hours to lvl 3
POS-Gunners? Need anchoring lvl 5, which is about 25 days for me, but we might need some once we have (semi-)permanent POS that we might have to defend...
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It depends on how we approach the space.
There are 2 approaches - day-trippers or infrastructure.
BattleCruisers should be fine in 0.0 - with a decent tank you should be able to handle the NPC's - but it depends on these NPC's. They'll have an AI and be different from the current 0.0 rats.
Anchoring is helpful and it means you'll be able to work with the POS. We may ship POS weapons but not anchor/online them initially to save fuel and ease the logistics a little.
POS-Gunners will be useful - but more-so later than early on - so there's no rush for it.
If we go the day-tripper route - there will be a higher risk of being stranded and if you run out of probes/ammo then you'll be stuck until somebody can get to you - or you POD yourself to get back (leaving your ship behind).
If we go the infrastructure route - then we'll have more of an overhead for running fuel, maintaining the POS - but you'll be able to store your ship safely, refit and rearm. Additionally you'll be able to POD yourself and not have to worry about your ship/loot being in the open.
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The day-trip thing is probably a dead end imo.
However the logistics way poses its own problems, as I see it the main one is probably getting the things back to empire/0.0 to make the profit.
For example, if it is mining we make the money from then we need to haul the minerals back to empire to sell. How much minerals will we be able to mine in the time we have between two wormholes to empire (or wherever we can accept ending up), how much can we transport given that time and the wormholes?
I think building a pseudo empire sounds fun :) but how to do it without wastng money and turning it into a money loosing venture :)
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I have not looked into what skills are needed to find these wormholes, but Elminda got some pretty good skills for finding the current exploration sites. Covert ops at 5 while Astrometic pinpointing, Astrometic triangulation, Astrometics and Signal Acquisition is at 4.
For now training her towards Orca wich is 28 days of training to include mining links wich could become longer depending on what i need to train to find those holes. :)
With Dlarah i can bring Amarr HAC, BC or BS with t2 pulse lasers for dps. Or i can use Noj in Caldari verions of those with slightly worse dps skills but he can jump into a Hulk to mine if the option to swap ships are there.
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The heavier probe launchers coming in the M10 patch will have skill requirements similar to the "Sisters of eve" Probe launcher - and will be able to scan, from what info we have so far, all things.
Standard WH scanning, while affected by skills, will be possible with a much lighter type of launcher.
One of the biggest changes coming with M10 will be those to the local channel. Local will now be in delayed mode - which means other players can be in system and you won't know about it until you bump into them. We need to consider this and develop ideas/techniques that don't leave people vulnerable.
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One of the biggest changes coming with M10 will be those to the local channel. Local will now be in delayed mode - which means other players can be in system and you won't know about it until you bump into them. We need to consider this and develop ideas/techniques that don't leave people vulnerable.
Source. CCP confirmation if at all possible.
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lol - git.
It'll take me a while to find all the references (I'll add to the following list as I find them):
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=982776&page=7#183
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I only asked, as such a change would be the biggest source of whinage in eve - bigger than the carrier nerf (that soon got stopped) and the recent speed changes. Luckily from that first quote, it seems its Whispers personal wish, but not policy (yet) :)
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I'll roll an alt for Swuliina who is able to use Herons (or other similar T1 scouting frigates) with relative ease. Does anybody have an example for a new toon who would be decent at Astrometrical thingies right out of the box (or with relative short training time so as to not eat Swuliinas training time :) )?
I think it wouldn't hurt us if we had several characters being able to fly T1 scouting frigates reasonably efficiently, as they won't cost lots to replace if/when they get shot to pieces, and a coordinated swarm of such vessels surely would be pretty fast to scout a system decently, or?
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With what they have said about the new launchers - all chars will be able to use the lightest WH launcher & probes.
Skills will only improve accuracy and speed. The much heavier probes are more aimed at Multi Use & Ship scanning (pvp). The heavy probes will have high skills & fitting requirements (ie only to cov-ops frigs).
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While I potter about looking for some reference for Beo - I did stumble across this: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=984302&page=1#23
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Caldari Achura. Mess about with the options on character selection for those, one of the possinilities ends up with Frigate V, which can open up the Buzzard pretty darn fast :)
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Handy info on W-Space, WH's etc (staring: http://www.eve-news.net/2009/01/446/1):
Originally by: Mr John22ta
How common will worm holes be? Are we going to have 5000 people hunting for the same wormhole, and only one r two finding it/getting through? I sense chaos ahead!
Answer by: CCP Whisper
We will make sure that wormholes are widely distributed. Much like the current exploration sites, they will despawn and respawn somewhere else if no-one finds them. So you should always be able to find a wormhole within a couple of jumps of your current location.
Answer by: CCP Greyscale
The “big launcher” (which requires the traditional 220tf CPU) is the all-singing all-dancing model, capable of probing ships and exploration sites, and launching moon probes. If you can fit one of these there’s no reason to fit a second launcher.
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And this deserved it's own message:
Upcoming patch for SISI: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/984299/page/1#4
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From (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/985287/page/5#123):
Concerning the solo concerns for W-space: we took into consideration all player styles during the Sleeper design process.
That means soloing is possible for the easiest situations you will face, but as mentionned CCP Gangleri, it will be challenging to do so.
For fighting against Sleepers ourselves, we can tell you not to expect the current "shoot and loot" approach toward existing NPCs.
On more difficult situations, a proper small/medium gang made of versatile ship classes and roles will be recommended.
Again, depending player skill and experience, this can vary greatly as it may be possible to do so in less numbers, like the level5 mentionned example, but that falls into a question of how much efficient would it be to do that.
In all cases, remember that W-space remains an unknown, hazardous area and as such teaming up with other players even on situations meant to be solotable will increase your chances significantly.
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Sleepers do sound fun, and having to be pretty much pvp fit and travel in packs gives life to small gang stuff once more - especially if you get jumped by another roaming gang ;)
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Was wondering: I am about 1.5 month away (considering me training for AF first) from an Interdictor. Should I go there soon, will we need one?
Flying one effectively (decent/good tank, T2 guns) will take me week or two more.
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Was wondering: I am about 1.5 month away (considering me training for AF first) from an Interdictor. Should I go there soon, will we need one?
Flying one effectively (decent/good tank, T2 guns) will take me week or two more.
Yes, yes, yes. Dictor pilots are always needed.
Especially minmatar ones. (Sabre > all other dictors)
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Ok, but will we need one for Wspace or will we need one for 0.0?
i.e. should i give dictor priority over say... HAC (anti-NPC and anti-player muscle in Wspace)
and if so, should i give prio over AF too? (about 1 month in that case)
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I'm slowly moving towards dictors/hics but it'll be quite some time before I can fly one :)
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Dictors are good but more fragile than a HAC.
Generally tanking skills are usable on all ships (although the larger ships require larger modules which tend to have higher skill reqs) - but as you build up the tanking skills it'll help all ships of that class.
A HAC would be a better option initially for W-Space and 0.0 if all is equal in terms of training time.
You'll probably be able to get the AF sooner and it's a good building block for both HAC's and dictors.
A dictor will probably be shorter to get than the HAC as it needs Destroyers V (rank 2 skill) rather than Cruiser V (rank 5) & Assult Ships V (rank 4).
The biggest overhead with a dictor is not so much the ship but the module you use on the ship - Interdiction Sphere Launcher (Graviton Physics: Sci V, Engineering V & Propulsion Jamming V).
Propulsion Jamming however is a very handy skill - as it allows you to anchor the Mobile Warp Disruptor bubbles!!!
Once you have the dictor and start moving onto Hacs - the other advantage is that you can pick up the Heavy Interdictors pretty quickly.
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well, to give you an overview of where i stand atm:
AF: 11d, 20h
Interceptor: 12d, 12h
Interdictor: 26d, 3h
HAC: 51d, 14h
HIC: 57d, 23h
These are skilltimes just to fly the ships, not to fit any spec. modules
Covert Ops incl sideskills: 44d, 15h
T2 small guns @lvl3: <1d
T2 med guns @lvl3 (incl small @4): ~21d
Whole bunch of 2ndary and primary tank and gunskills (approx standard certificates + some neat other skills): ~130d
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As the HAC & HIC skills would have overlap with the AF, Interceptor & dictor then you'll see the time needed drop as you get them.
When looking at ships I find it useful to use the ship fits suggested by the battleclinic loadouts built into evemon.
Find a reasonable fitting and then add them to the skill plan - you'll then get a better idea about what skills you need.
Generally it's better to get the module/supporting skills first before the ship - then you know then when you have lvl 1 of the ship skill - you're ready to hop into it.
The actual ship skill should be to lvl 3 as a minimum - ideally 4.
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I can't emphasise enough, as a recon pilot how incredibly important DPS dictors like the sabre are.
I can lock down someone from 150KM away, but if you can keep him scrammed, webbed and bubbled AND do DPS, he's toast.
I can't emphasise enough, as a recon pilot how incredibly important DPS dictors like the sabre are.
I can't emphasise enough, as a recon pilot how incredibly important DPS dictors like the sabre are.
I can't emphasise enough, as a recon pilot how incredibly important DPS dictors like the sabre are.
I can't emphasise enough, as a recon pilot how incredibly important DPS dictors like the sabre are.
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Thanks for your inputs. :)
I get the slight feeling interdictor could be a wee usefull, so hey, why not go that way first?
-> 61-ish days with interdiction skills
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lol - I think we hear you.
But if he doesn't take into account the reqs for the laucher then he's gonna feel cheated and sore - the laucher isn't an easy skill ride.
Dictors are good - but they have crappy tanks - the Sabre has what? an EHP of 5.5K and a dps of 398 (T1 ammo) and 507 (T2 ammo). The tank on the Sabre is better than most dictors I think but you'll get more dmg with a flycatcher with 619 (T1 ammo) and 792 (T2 ammo) - ;)
The AF & Interceptor are good starts and you'll probably see the time for the other ships drop by approx the time it takes to train them.
So for the dictor you'll see the time drop by 10-12 days by going for the AF/Interceptor.
Additionally you'll be able to scam 1 or 2 ships. The dictor bubble is better as it's AOE and doesn't use any cap once you've dropped the bubble. But I'd suggest training the launcher before you go for the ship skills as it does take some time. The added benefit is that the Graviton Physics skills is handy for R&D agents :)
Interdictors along with Interceptors have a fast in-warp speed - which allows you to reach the end-point quicker than most ships to tackle/bubble. The flip side however is that any support you have in system is likely to land after you have them tackled. Ideally somebody like vac will arrive, quickly lock and jam them.
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Oh yeah, get grav physics & prop jamming V first
not the other way around.
But as soon as you can, do.
And just in case you didn't get the point ...
I can't emphasise enough, as a recon pilot, how incredibly important DPS dictors like the sabre are.
I can't emphasise enough, as a recon pilot, how incredibly important DPS dictors like the sabre are.
I can't emphasise enough, as a recon pilot, how incredibly important DPS dictors like the sabre are.
I can't emphasise enough, as a recon pilot, how incredibly important DPS dictors like the sabre are.
:-)
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ok, think ill do it this way
- interceptor
- dic sideskills
- dic
if thou approveth
:D
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Ideally somebody like vac will arrive, quickly lock and jam them.
on a sidenote: we dont have vac; do we have somebody like vac?
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Well there's only one Vac and I find it hard to believe that anybody can be like him :)
Short answer: Yes.
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Might be good to have an overview of what chars we have and if they will roam into 0.0/W-space. I for one lost track
So please copy paste the list of the last poster and add player-name, char-name(s), role(s) and whether yes, ?, or no they will be be joining operations outside empire in... say the next 2 months.
Warcold, Safran Foer, defence/ratting, yes
Warcold, Aicha Cephei, miner, ?
Warcold, Angakuk, research, no
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Warcold, Safran Foer, defence/ratting, yes
Warcold, Aicha Cephei, miner, ?
Warcold, Angakuk, research, no
Jarkko, Swuul, Logistics, yes
Jarkko, Swuliina, Miner/Explorer/Salvager, yes
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Warcold, Safran Foer, defence/ratting, yes
Warcold, Aicha Cephei, miner, ?
Warcold, Angakuk, research, no
Jarkko, Swuul, Logistics, yes
Jarkko, Swuliina, Miner/Explorer/Salvager, yes
Peo, Hrodgar Ortal, defence/ratting, yes
Peo, Anna Ortal, trader, no
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Can we use some nemonics to make things a little clearers (;)) and to make the abilities more defined?
These are general categories and will help plan out who/what we have and what will be needed. It means we can plug the info more easily into spreadsheets we use for planning & logistics.
When using the abbreviations below - work to what you expect the char to have by M10 rather than what you have today. Only include an abbreviation if you'll be using that function for the char - ie: Red won't be mining - so I won't include T1M even though he can. Additionally as this is mostly about W-Space - only include chars you might be bringing in.
Logistics (mining & hauling):
T1M - Tech 1 Miner. This means you have mining barge but not exhumers. They'll be a range of T1/T2 mining lasers & crystals - so you don't need to worry about this
T2M - Tech 2 Miner. This means you have exhumers.
T1H - Tech 1 Hauler. This means you can fly an industrial but not a transport ship
T2H - Tech 2 Hauler. This means you can fly a transport ship.
Ships (T1 frigs, cruisers & BC's will be produced on side):
BC - battlecruiser
T1CR - Tech 1 Cruiser - a general category for Tech 1 cruisers
T2CR - Tech 2 Cruiser - a general category for Tech 2 cruisers
OR - You can fly an Orca
Exploration:
PB(n) - You can probe - oo er misses. Where (n) is the level you have astrometics at (which affects the types of probes you can use)
HK - You can use the "Codebreaker" hacking module
AR - You can use the "Analyzer I" archaeology module
Other:
SAL(n) - Salvaging - where (n) is the level you have it to. The main reason for the level is that we don't currently know what level will be needed.
MAN - Manufacturing where you have PE trained to some level
PG - Pos Gunner
Those interested in going into W-Space:
Warcold:
Safran Foer [YES] [], defence/ratting
Aicha Cephei [?] [] miner
Jarkko
Swuul [YES] [], Logistics
Swuliina [YES] [], Miner/Explorer/Salvager
Peo:
Hrodgar Ortal [YES][], defence/ratting
Rubino:
Red [YES] [BC, T2CR, T2H, OR, PB(4), HK, AR, SAL(2)]
Major Epsillon [YES] [MAN, T2M, T2H, PB(4), T1C, HK, AR, SAL(3)]
Gankor[YES][T2H, PB(5), T2C, HK, AR, SAL(3), BC, PG]
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Warcold:
Safran Foer [YES] [T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Aicha Cephei [?] [T2M, T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Jarkko
Swuul [YES] [], Logistics
Swuliina [YES] [], Miner/Explorer/Salvager
Peo:
Hrodgar Ortal [YES][], defence/ratting
Rubino:
Red [YES] [BC, T2CR, T2H, OR, PB(4), HK, AR, SAL(2)]
Major Epsillon [YES] [MAN, T2M, T2H, PB(4), T1C, HK, AR, SAL(3)]
Gankor[YES][T2H, PB(5), T2C, HK, AR, SAL(3), BC, PG]
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I suppose we are supposed to give the situation now. For example Swuul will be able to fly a T2 cruiser (Basilisk, the other T2 cruisers would take a bit longer) at around March 15th while Swuliina will be able to fly a Hulk a week later :)
Warcold:
Safran Foer [YES] [T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Aicha Cephei [?] [T2M, T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Jarkko
Swuul [YES] [T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Swuliina [YES] [T1M, PB(3), SAL(3)]
Peo:
Hrodgar Ortal [YES][], defence/ratting
Rubino:
Red [YES] [BC, T2CR, T2H, OR, PB(4), HK, AR, SAL(2)]
Major Epsillon [YES] [MAN, T2M, T2H, PB(4), T1C, HK, AR, SAL(3)]
Gankor[YES][T2H, PB(5), T2C, HK, AR, SAL(3), BC, PG]
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Warcold:
Safran Foer [YES] [T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Aicha Cephei [?] [T2M, T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Jarkko
Swuul [YES] [T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Swuliina [YES] [T1M, PB(3), SAL(3)]
Peo:
Hrodgar Ortal [YES][T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(1)]
Rubino:
Red [YES] [BC, T2CR, T2H, OR, PB(4), HK, AR, SAL(2)]
Major Epsillon [YES] [MAN, T2M, T2H, PB(4), T1C, HK, AR, SAL(3)]
Gankor[YES][T2H, PB(5), T2C, HK, AR, SAL(3), BC, PG]
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Warcold:
Safran Foer [YES] [T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Aicha Cephei [?] [T2M, T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Jarkko
Swuul [YES] [T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Swuliina [YES] [T1M, PB(3), SAL(3)]
Peo:
Hrodgar Ortal [YES][T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(1)]
Rubino:
Red [YES] [BC, T2CR, T2H, OR, PB(4), HK, AR, SAL(2)]
Major Epsillon [YES] [MAN, T2M, T2H, PB(4), T1C, HK, AR, SAL(3)]
Gankor[YES][T2H, PB(5), T2C, HK, AR, SAL(3), BC, PG]
Mac:
Akamine [yes] [BC, T1CR, T2CR, T1H]
Chalcocite [?] [T2M, T1H]
Hellfire [yes] [T2M, T1CR, T1H]
Sebnemm [?] [BC, T1CR, T2CR, MAN]
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Ok cool - so there's 5 of us so far that want to setup something in W-Space. I thought there would be a few more but..
We've a good bunch of skills & things covered so far. We'll know more tomorrow when we get a chance to checkout SISI
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I thought there would be a few more but..
*wink wink nudge nudge*
small hint: ADD YOUR CHARS!!!!!1!!!111!
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Ok cool - so there's 5 of us so far that want to setup something in W-Space. I thought there would be a few more but..
We've a good bunch of skills & things covered so far. We'll know more tomorrow when we get a chance to checkout SISI
Im only adding after Ive checked out sisi which is why i have held back. Plans for the majority of my gang of alts are currently under a constant state of flux, so knowing in advance is probably best for me ;)
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Depending on how i work the weeks the W-space journey happens i might not be able to join at all as i wouldnt be on much and if i do get on it is at silly hours. I list 3 of my chars, but would only use up to 2 at a time as 3 just get too much tabbing trough windows to play.
Warcold:
Safran Foer [YES] [T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Aicha Cephei [?] [T2M, T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Jarkko
Swuul [YES] [T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(3)]
Swuliina [YES] [T1M, PB(3), SAL(3)]
Peo:
Hrodgar Ortal [YES][T1H, BC, T1CR, SAL(1)]
Rubino:
Red [YES] [BC, T2CR, T2H, OR, PB(4), HK, AR, SAL(2)]
Major Epsillon [YES] [MAN, T2M, T2H, PB(4), T1C, HK, AR, SAL(3)]
Gankor[YES][T2H, PB(5), T2C, HK, AR, SAL(3), BC, PG]
Mac:
Akamine [yes] [BC, T1CR, T2CR, T1H]
Chalcocite [?] [T2M, T1H]
Hellfire [yes] [T2M, T1CR, T1H]
Sebnemm [?] [BC, T1CR, T2CR, MAN]
Dlarah:
Noj Dlarah [yes] [T2M, T1H, BC, T1CR, T2CR, SAL(2)]
Elminda Meloy [yes] [T1M, T1H, BC, T1CR, OR, PB(4), HK, AR, SAL(3), MAN
Dlarah [yes] [T1CR, T2CR, BC]
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Ok cool - so there's 5 of us so far that want to setup something in W-Space. I thought there would be a few more but..
We've a good bunch of skills & things covered so far. We'll know more tomorrow when we get a chance to checkout SISI
I want to help out, but i have no clue about what is good/bad or what i like yet.
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I want to help out, but i have no clue about what is good/bad or what i like yet.
There is always room for an extra miner, or a cruiser pilot (you'll end up in one soon enough :) ), so I don't think it is that crucial to know yet what you want to be good in :) My toons have skills a bit here and there, but I do hope the corp has use for them. It may not be perfect, but at least I should be useful in various situations.
Btw, we don't seem to have any dedicated POS gunners. Once the expansion is available, I think I'll start a third account and train a POS gunner asap, then transfer her under Swuliinas account. I hope that could be accomplished in the 51 days (21 day buffy invite and 30 day paid time; 30 days which I would have to pay anyway for, so why not take advantage of the system?).
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If you mess with the atrribute mappings you might be able to shave a lot off the time.
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We can add hacking, Archaeology and Gas cloud harvesting to the list of skills.
Gas cloud harvesting is a fairly simple skills requiring Mining 4.
Hacking is a tougher one - needing Science 5 and Electronic Upgrades 5.
Archaeology is also tough - needing Science 5 and Survey 5.
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Ok, Sha'k might be coming out there, dunno yet - skills from the list that I can do are T2M, T2H, T2CR, HK, AR, SAL(4), MAN.
It will take me just over 2 weeks to fly a HIC and all other T2 cruisers are less than a week away and an Orca is no time at all. Basically if you have a role that needs filling I can fill it by the time we move out there. I don't really have any current direction on my character at the moment apart from I don't really want to start training for capital ships.
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Shark
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I have hacking and archeoligy already. So if the corp has need for them gimme a call
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It appears a lot of W-Space will be around exploration sites there - so the more we have the better.
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I can explore, i thought bebur could explore too (and better than i can) and not sure about sha'k but he might also be able to do it. So if/when we enter W-space we should be able to track down the nice spots
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Don't forget the 'roids! As huge as houses!
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Mining is for the meek.. i dont "do" roids :D
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Guys, could you please stick to the formula posted above. Some sort of orderly fashion wouldn't hurt, would it? Please? :)
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I've updated the Tech 3 construction thread (http://handsofjustice.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=667.15) with the new skills for construction in M10