Hands of Justice

What we have played => EVE Online => Topic started by: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 01:20:16 PM

Title: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 01:20:16 PM
So what are we thinking of here? Is this something we'd like to take advantage of?
Do we want to setup something in a system we find?

Filling in from the discussion in this thread (just a start by no means complete):

Quote
POS
   
ItemVolume (1000 m3)Cost (M ISK)
Large Tower8360
Corp Hanger Array49
Ship Maintainence Array818
Equipment Assembly Array6.2554
Ammunition Assembly Array1.2554
Intensive Refining Array663
Med Arty12.25
Medium Ship Assembly Array1793
Small Ship Assembly Array1090
Warp Scram Array42.25
Reactor
Solo x3
Total65.5700
- do we want to worry about hardeners initially?  I doubt it but just asking.
- large tower rather than a med due to the req of the refining array.

Quote
POS Fuel
4 weeks needed - 2 weeks to be carried on the inital voyage - maybe more space allowing.
Assuming the Tower, Ship Maint, Corp Hanger, Guns & Scram are online then the weekly fuel needed is:

   
Isotopes75,600
Heavy Water672
Liquid Ozone4200
Coolant1344
Mechanical Parts840
Enriched Uranium672
Robotics168

For a 7 day period the above would require 22.5k m3

Enough Stront for reinforced:
   
DaysQuantity NeededVolumePrice @ 400 ISK pu (M ISK)
1 day9600288003.84
2 days19200576007.68
3 days288008640011.52
4 days3840011520015.36


Quote
BPCs
Assigned to Constantine for planning & determining inv required.

Needs details but:
Ammo,
Gas Harvesters,
Gas harvesting skills,
Polymer Reactions,
mining crystals,
drones,
Cruiser & BC

Quote
Ships
Mining ships - Assigned to Akamine to determine what needs to be taken for his teams.
BC's
Logistics

Quote
Modules
T2 modules/ammo/Drones.  For expedience - buy a small/med container for your hanger and drop in the things you want to take.  Start sooner rather than later - a little now and then is better than a rush at the end.
Cyno Module (incase the rules change and they're allowed)

Carrying Capacity:
Orca: Cargo 72k, Corp Hanger 40k, Ship Maint Bay (assembled ships only) 400k
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 27, 2009, 01:22:10 PM
We need to know if it it worth the investment to set up a pos.
Lets say we build that, we need to be certain that we can harvest a significant amount more than we invest in it.

edit: we also need to consider the bringing what we harvest back with us.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Warcold on January 27, 2009, 01:29:03 PM
What I also think we should think about is: can we chew both going to 0.0 and doing wild stuff in W-space in a timespan of about one month (~ 3 weeks to go to 0.0-date we planned, and 6-ish weeks to go for M10).
This might be a discussion to do in another thread, but a decision that must be made IMO

Other than that: I am getting more and more enthusiastic about W-space  ;D, but aforementioned concerns me  :-\.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 27, 2009, 01:30:42 PM
Quote from: Warcold on January 27, 2009, 01:29:03 PM
What I also think we should think about is: can we chew both going to 0.0 and doing wild stuff in W-space in a timespan of about one month (~ 3 weeks to go to 0.0-date we planned, and 6-ish weeks to go for M10).
This might be a discussion to do in another thread, but a decision that must be made IMO

Other than that: I am getting more and more enthusiastic about W-space  ;D, but aforementioned concerns me  :-\.

I don't think w-space is something you do all the time. Regardless from what I understand the w-space accessable from 0.0 is "better" than the one from empire and also the competition for the wh in 0.0 will most likely be lower.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 01:34:10 PM
Aye.  Which will be hard until we have some hands on with SISI.
The setup cost won't be that much - 200m for the tower - probably 500m including the POS modules & fuel.
If Beo doesn't have the figures handy from the KASSI POS then it's not a problem to pull them together.

0.0 mining should cover those expenses without too much effort and you're likely to be in profit within a week.

We will be moving to the current 0.0 environment within Eve.  For a start 0.0 life is very different from Empire - and we need the experience as a team.  What we learn together about 0.0 before we play with W-Space will make a huge impact on how we effectively operate in the new space.

This will happen sooner rather than later.  There was a small discussion last night with Beo about moving to 0.0 and he's 100% behind the idea.
Warcold has started an excellent thread about W-Space here (http://handsofjustice.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=655.0) - this thread is more about planning some logistics around setting up infrastructure in W-Space and how we can maximise our initial footprint into W-Space.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 27, 2009, 02:00:21 PM
Ok :)

Bit confused about where to post what in all these threads haha :)

Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 02:54:20 PM
This one is more about logistics of what we should pack.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Mangala on January 27, 2009, 04:42:19 PM
Quote
I don't think w-space is something you do all the time.

I will be doing as often as I can, going to really enjoy the new scanning methods, the encounters in W-Space and the chance at T3 :D. Im refocusing on Mangala towards top end exploration skills (regardless if their utility changes or not) as well as working on maxing her combat side to aid her to counter whatever she finds there - player or npc - well enough to make me some profit. Tech 3 is my grail in this regards, an opportunity to get in on a new tech and get horribly rich doesnt happen often at this stage of EVE's life, so it is to be sought out and imprisioned in my wallet when it does!
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Mangala on January 27, 2009, 04:44:29 PM
I dropped roughly 450-475 (my transactions list is massive!) on the tower, labs and some fuel (in addition to what you provided Rub).  We'd be looking at a Tower, refinery, hangar, maint, and of course defenses. So I'd say 500-600 mill, maybe a touch less if we look for cheap gun/defense item bpc's for the tower and run off our own (smaller overall cost this way, but still a cost)
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 27, 2009, 05:19:50 PM
Lets say about 800m in materials and equipment not counting the ships to get the materials there for a two week expedition.

Lets say we want to stay for two weeks a pop (given sufficiently large wh) I belive we need to have the capacity to replace lost ships and equipment for them and also cloning facilities.
So at the very least a rorqual and a hulk filled with equipment.

Probably enough bpc to make bc/bs and the equipment for them, possibly include some cheeper frigates for tackling if we need to defend space (likely over a two week period).

Basically I think we need to be able to have enough lasting power in the place to be able to wait out a good wormhole to "safe" space (be that empire or blue 0.0).
If we find a system that is very good in all respects I would think it will have a wormhole exiting into "safe" space with enough frequency so that we if we are already there can resupply and move some materials out to profit.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Mangala on January 27, 2009, 05:32:10 PM
From CCP Greyscale:

Quote
There'll always be a wormhole leading somewhere, somewhere in the system. It just might not be going somewhere you want it to go.

So this seems like while its possible to resupply a fixed tower in W-Space, its going to involve alot of randomness as to whether a 'hole opens close to a place our resupply happens to be waiting.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 27, 2009, 05:55:49 PM
Quote from: Mangala on January 27, 2009, 05:32:10 PM
From CCP Greyscale:

Quote
There'll always be a wormhole leading somewhere, somewhere in the system. It just might not be going somewhere you want it to go.

So this seems like while its possible to resupply a fixed tower in W-Space, its going to involve alot of randomness as to whether a 'hole opens close to a place our resupply happens to be waiting.

Yes.
I think we would have to be able to run the tower for at least 2 weeks with the material we bring there in the first place.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 06:04:43 PM
It won't be that bad - I'll knock up a IGB app that records the system ID - and will assign a name to it.
As you move between about just refresh the page and it will record the from <-> To system - which over time will give us possible routes and a map.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Mangala on January 27, 2009, 06:08:05 PM
Quote from: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 06:04:43 PM
It won't be that bad - I'll knock up a IGB app that records the system ID - and will assign a name to it.
As you move between about just refresh the page and it will record the from <-> To system - which over time will give us possible routes and a map.
/me has rubs babies.


Let me choose the names!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 27, 2009, 06:10:03 PM
Quote from: Mangala on January 27, 2009, 06:08:05 PM
Quote from: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 06:04:43 PM
It won't be that bad - I'll knock up a IGB app that records the system ID - and will assign a name to it.
As you move between about just refresh the page and it will record the from <-> To system - which over time will give us possible routes and a map.
/me has rubs babies.


Let me choose the names!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Name them after the members in the corps ;)
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 06:22:43 PM
lol - with 2500 new systems - we might need something a little more logical :)
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Caradir on January 27, 2009, 06:25:07 PM
if i find it i name it ;)

thats what explorers do isnt it? its a perk of the job :D

Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 06:41:27 PM
How about we let the application name it - and I'll implement the ability to "nickname" the system?
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 27, 2009, 07:02:13 PM
To be honest the names aren't that important ;)

I was thinking, what will our maximum capacity to move things into a wh be?
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 07:09:54 PM
Currently 2 Orcas, a couple of T2 haulers and some T1 haulers.
I wouldn't really want the freighter going in.

The freighters can each hold about 27-30k m3.
The Orcas when fully expanded and riggs about 120k m3.

2 haulers would be enough but it would probably be wiser to use 1 orca and 1 T2 hauler - as the Orca can carry ships at the same time.

Generally thinking would be buy 4 weeks of fuel and to carry 2 weeks in with the POS.  The remaining fuel should be in a T2 hauler at HQ ready to roll.
We can always build another corp orca - load it up over time for things to be ferried in - and then bring one in/out.

Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 27, 2009, 09:13:58 PM
Would we be able to bring enough support to survive with using just one orca?
And I wouldn't want to move a freighter into there either, they are a bit to risky assets unless we are certain we can fill one up quickly.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 09:45:31 PM
If 2 T2 freighters are enough - then an Orca will be.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 28, 2009, 09:09:23 AM
Quote from: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 09:45:31 PM
If 2 T2 freighters are enough - then an Orca will be.

Depends what we want to do no?

We don't know what will be needed to get access to t3, but from the little I've understood it was "reverse engineering" which I interpret as needing to be able to fight for it.
An orca etc is great for mining and also setting up the pos etc. But what about the npcs?
What I mean is will an expedition of one orca and a couple of haulers be able to bring that kind of support since the orca can only carry mining ships.
Or am I missing something?
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 28, 2009, 09:25:34 AM
The carrying capacity of an orca means you'll be able to take the POS, POS modules and fuel, extra combat ships, modules, ammo, bpc's etc.
An extra hauler would be handy to allow for longer stay/resupply - and also for returning to K-Space.

Regarding tanking - the Orca should be able to tank the NPC's without a problem - but the bigger issue will be the new AI for the NPC's - they will be switching targets, using ECM on other ships, etc.. Gonna be interesting.

There is going to be a big unknown to start with regarding T3 - although I'm hoping DevBlogs and SISI will help full the gaps.

Those not involved in flying the supply ships would bring pure combat ships & mining vessels.  All combat ships should initially fit something for scanning.

I would guess that all bar 1 scouts would deploy and look for WH's - and start mapping the current neighbours.  The remaining scout would survey the moons in the system.
This would be a "hot op" so we'd be deciding things on the move about where to setup the POS initially.
I would guess also that combat ships would scout the system looking for NPC's with "We come in peace, Set Phasers on kill" painted to their hulls. :)
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 28, 2009, 09:34:48 AM
Ok :)

Can't remember but will we know the allowed mass of a wh?
Other than that we probably need to decide some time when it is released when we can have those interested online so we can get everyone interested through at the first attempt. (perhaps using pods to fly through to save mass??)
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 28, 2009, 09:38:03 AM
We can work out those details here :) that's what it's for.

You'll be able to inspect the WH to find out it's mass allowance when you find one.
If we knock together a ship list - we can workout that mass needed by the WH - which will help in selection when we start the op.
Luckily it's only the ship mass that matters - the cargo it carries doesn't factor in.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 28, 2009, 09:49:43 AM
Yup :)
Hopefully any system we go too will have a decent supply of "low tech" ores to produce t1 ships as well which would reduce the logistics demand.

Of course currently it is impossible to know what is worth the most in w-space, afterall we don't know if it will be minerals or loot from npcs. Which it is will be the determining factor.

Hmm or right, for us "newbies" it might be a good idea to bring skillbooks if we stay there for 2 weeks or more. Not that they take up space but anyway :)

To maximize cargo capacity initially some of the larger combat ships could have cargoexpanders installed, should make it possible to bring lots more supplies? but of course would also require something that allows us to refit them on site.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 28, 2009, 09:54:05 AM
This will be 0.0 space - so the rats are likely to hit hard - a well tanked cruiser probably won't cut it - you'll probably need something T2 or a BC.
BC's are a fairly easy build - so it won't be too much hassle to get the mins needed - and as it's 0.0 - we should see all ores.

In terms of mining - Hulks generally are fine tanking - but again it depends on the AI with these NPC's.

Skill books are a good idea - and it would be wise to upgrade your clone to give yourself some breathing space above and beyond the SP the current holds.   You maybe lost in space for a while :)
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 28, 2009, 09:58:27 AM
A logistics cruiser (probably not minne as they look bad hehe) will probably be essential, especially as we will lack cloning and well we don't know how they will react to pods so having a good ship for remote reping/shield transfer is probably wise.

I hope that we, if successful, will be able to bring more support to the place (given profit etc) mainly a rorqual when we are able to. Have a feeling one of those would improve the potential gain significantly and also reduce risks.

Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 28, 2009, 10:05:37 AM
Good thinking.  With the POS we'll have modules for armor & hull you can refit which will allow you to repair your own ship.
I'll update the starting post with a shopping list around DT.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Warcold on January 28, 2009, 11:27:15 AM
I think flying in in pods to safe mass is also a good idea. Although this mean that you wont have spare ships, as the one in the orca are used by the podpilots.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Jarkko on January 28, 2009, 11:27:47 AM
My current EveMon shows me I'll finish Caldari Cruiser V at March 13th. I've been intending to go for HAC at that point, but perhaps I should postone that plan a bit, and go for Logistics instead? I don't mind being the "healer" of the group, it is in fact something I seem to like in other games at least...
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 28, 2009, 12:19:18 PM
Tanking skills should be first - so T2 shield booster or T2 reppers for the ship class, then T2 hardeners (passive or active).
In W-Space the npcs will switch targets - so even logistics will need to tank some.

What does evemon say the training time will be for logistics?
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Jarkko on January 28, 2009, 12:32:10 PM
Quote from: Rubino on January 28, 2009, 12:19:18 PM
What does evemon say the training time will be for logistics?
If I'd abandong everything planned now and change to get Logistics, the earliest time I could have Logistics I is February 13th. After that I'd need Caldari Crusiser V to actually be able to fly a logistic ship, and I'd hit that on March 9th. Add a bit of missed skill changes etc, and I'd be flying a Basilisk on March 10th... That date sounds familiar...

In all, it wouldn't look too difficult to get there. Give me the word, and I'll change plans now :)


EDIT: I think I'll get an Osprey and practise the support skills with a bit. I am starting to get exited about this "healing" stuff, need to read it up :)
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 28, 2009, 12:59:59 PM
Checkout the modules also - they sometimes have different requirements.
Don't forget about drones - often with the "healing" drones will have the same requirements as the logistics ships.

Some good support type skills (along the way - nothing urgent):
EW (Sensor damps, ECM, Tracking disruptors, Target Painters, etc.  TP's apparently help missile and gun users)
Logistics (Remote Shield and Armor - the former helps everybody even armor tankers with their sheild buffer)

If you're a drone use - look at the logistics and EQ drones - they can be a pain to train but have some great usability as it means you can free up your slots for more interesting modules.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Jarkko on January 28, 2009, 02:21:52 PM
Found a picture of an Osprey. If I calculate right, I too could fit things in the picture. Any comments on this?
(http://www.eve-files.com/media/0603/osprey.png)


Took a look at the different equipment suggested. The following fitting for a Basilisk would require me to get Energy System Operations IV and Energy Management IV, which would take a bit under 3 days (assuming I'd be able to fly a Basilisk, that is :) ).

Highs
2 Large Shield Transporter 1's
4 Medium Shield Tranporter 2's

Mids
5 FB-10 Cap Regenerators.

Lows
2 Cap power relays


Also, I see that most articles I read suggest to get at least Logistics IV, which woul take a bit over six days for me to get. In all, if I did change my skill training *now*, I'd have Logistic IV, Energy System Operations IV, Energy Management IV *and* be able to fly a Basilisk (Caldari Cruiser V is the one that takes over three weeks to learn) on March 19th. Would this be a viable thing to do, and would this be any good for the Corp?
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 29, 2009, 12:16:02 AM
First post in this thread updated with information so far: initial POS deployment, fittings, etc
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 29, 2009, 06:21:46 AM
I think having a few frigates along mainly for scouting and if we run into player opposition we would like removed tackling. I would think that we want to take up as little as possible of a wh allowance when checking the system out before moving in a large group.
However I understand if we can't have a small ship assembly array along as well (space requirements).
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 29, 2009, 09:30:42 AM
Updated with a small ship assembly array and included a pic showing fuel costs/volume for 7 days.
We'll be offlining the assembly arrays & refining array when they're not in use to extend the fuel supply.
I'll test in SISI but you'll probably need anchoring 1 and roles to bring them online again.  It will introduce a delay into the build/mining cycle - but until we have a months fuel onsite ready to be loaded - it's a better option.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 29, 2009, 10:34:14 AM
First post updated again with more details incl. volumes and prices.
Assigned tasks to the respective director of ops for Production & Mining.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 29, 2009, 11:15:44 AM
Hmm, the current cargo requirement is about 110k m3 without stront.
Doesn't leave to much for combat support to be carried.

Can you have the mining ships loaded with other things than ores? Or would that not work in the hangar?? (having no idea how a ship with a corp hangar works)
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 29, 2009, 11:33:56 AM
One fully expanded and rigged orca will carry that - and additionally you have the ship hanger on the orca for ships.  So you can bring other ships also - with a priority given to mining ships.  Ships in the ship hanger on the orca must be assembled and can only carry ammo.
The small ship assembly array was added as it's volume is less than a single frig - so making them there would be optimal in terms of cargo for the initial expedition.

Additional ships coming on the initial expedition can carry any sort of cargo - which can include, depending on the volume, packaged ships.  Packaged ships in the cargo can be jetissoned - at which point they self-assemble in space (rather than being inside a jet-can).
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 29, 2009, 11:56:27 AM
We won't be doing the moon mining bit right? (in w-space at least)
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 29, 2009, 12:05:38 PM
Not to start with I think.

Scanning the moons takes a fair amount of time (5-10 mins per moon depending on the moon probe & skills [Discovery & Gaze Probes] ) and currently we don't know the avg number of moons in systems.  We should, however, start scanning moons before we actually drop the POS so we can at least setup on moon with a decent moon mineral.

On a related note - we need to come up with a criteria for selecting a W-Space system.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on January 29, 2009, 12:16:14 PM
True.
I suspect we will have three requirements.
1. Access to T3 materials (ores? and whatever might yield the t3 resources/bp), I suspect this will be the real money maker of W-Space.
2. Access to normal ores to sustain our own presence in the system, that is a system with a good supply of belts.
3. Access to moon materials (dysp etc), the simple reason is I doubt this will remain the moneymaker many are thinking.

If they for some reason decide ice belts are going to be in then that would be very high up but so far that seems to be out of the picture.

Also, we need to be prepared to move from one system to another neighbor if that system is better regardless of our logistics in the original system and setting up in more than one system I think is a surefire way to fail both.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 29, 2009, 12:29:30 PM
Aye - we need some kind of scorecard system is needed to allow a comparative evaluation.

Assumptions:
a) Deploying a POS takes time - so while moving it isn't much of an issue - you don't want to do it too often.
b) The first W-System we encounter is likely to have W-K links.  This is double edged sword - it means we'll be able to hop in/out & simplify logistics but also means it's likely to have other visitors.
c) W-System resources: Rats, Belts, number of moons, quality of moons, Exploration sites, W-K Links & W-W Links.  Each of these needs points assigned to help asses quality.

Currently we don't know much about how we get access to the T3 elements - but we have enough information to make a rough draft of the scorecard which we can refine as more information becomes available.  When we have something that's close to general agreement - I'll turn it into an excel and people can reference and use. 
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Warcold on January 29, 2009, 01:45:46 PM
moving W-W means we all need to be online at the same time though, or risk losing ppl

or we need to trust each other very, very much and dish out accounts/pws
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on January 29, 2009, 02:04:14 PM
Let's not share accounts as it's against CCP policy.

The initial expedition will be as one group - so the chances of losing somebody would be smaller as long as we ensured the WH was appropriate for the group.
I would imagine that once we are established - the real exploration would start. 

The way I'm currently planning is:
Buy, Make & assemble in place the resources needed
Determine expedition mass
Expedition force gathers together at the appointed date/time
Exploration starts by scout in K-Space to find a WH of suitable mass allowance (WH's from the info so far will be every "few" systems in K-Space)
Expedition slides down the shute into W-Space
POS team safe up
Primary scout looks for WH's of suitable size and direction into deeper W-Space and then we asses/prioritize WH's - further scouting into those WH's
Other members asses/survey the current system

At this point we will have a list of potential sites.
We apply the scorecard against these sites (and the current system) and decide what to do
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on February 02, 2009, 05:16:18 PM
Was reading the last chronicle.
Wonder if the reference to "isogen-5" could be an indication to a resource needed for t3 production. Seemed to be floating around space so could be harvestable by mining for example.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Mangala on February 02, 2009, 05:18:49 PM
Quote from: peo on February 02, 2009, 05:16:18 PM
Was reading the last chronicle.
Wonder if the reference to "isogen-5" could be an indication to a resource needed for t3 production. Seemed to be floating around space so could be harvestable by mining for example.


Aye - there is in the database variations of the existing ores - and I dont mean the mission space variations in certain mining missions - but others, I'll try and look up the source for these.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on February 15, 2009, 06:44:22 PM
Updated the first post to include the new POS modules for Tech3 construction.
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on March 02, 2009, 09:36:03 AM
So far there's a ton of exploration based mining in W-Space - all ores can be found from Veld to Crocite/Mercox.
NPC's still spawn at these sites ranging from every 10mins or so and comprising of just a few NPC's - generally frigs/cruisers - sometimes an occassional BS.

Polymer clouds appear also in decent numbers - generally 2 clouds per site and so far 3-5 sites found in each system.
I've not yet seen NPC's appear in these sites - but it may just have been me not hanging around long enough.
Volume of clouds is between 10k & 50k.  Watch out in these as the cloud will prevent any cloak from operating within range of the polymer cloud (warp your probing ship at an appropriate distance).
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: peo on March 02, 2009, 09:44:30 AM
So everything needs probing?
Then one of the most important things to be able to produce are probes?
Title: Re: W-Space
Post by: Rubino on March 02, 2009, 10:07:58 AM
Not everything needs probing as the System Scanner will work without probes and will scan within 5AU of your ship in about 30s.  So you can warp to planets/celestials and pick up anomoly (?spelling) exploration sites and warp to them.  You won't be able to scan down WH's or other Cosmic Sigs based sites.

Probes can now be reused (thankfully) and also are stackable now in your hold when they've been used.  Reused probes don't expire or have any kind of lifetime outside of when they're deployed.  You can also reconnect probes should you get disconnected or change system without recalling them.  Probes last for about an hour.

You'll need 8-16 probes (8-16 of both types if you can use the Deep Space probes @ Astrometrics V) - 16 will give you a set of spares should something go wrong.
Deep Space Probes have a max range of 1024 AU & a min of 32AU (iirc), Core Probes have a max range of 32AU & a min range of 0.25 AU.

With practice it's possible to scan down a site within a few minutes - and a good guide on how to probe can be found: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1007848
A related spreadsheet that's very handy for finding specific types of signatures (using Target Size) is: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1005459

Anything that can be probed has a target size (so WH's leading to a highsec K-Space from W-Space has a size of x, a WH leading to 0.0 from W-Space has a size of y, a mining site has a size of z, etc) and the spreadsheet is handy as it allows you to relate signature "target size" to Signal Strength based on skills/modules/implants & the type/range of probe you are using.  This allows you to scan & home onto a specific type of signal.

This works well generally but has a few issues when you have a lot of signatures to select from with overlapping Target Sizes.

I'll writeup an additional little guide on using probes when I have an approach that I feel comfortably works well.  The main aspect I'm trying to cover is when you have lots of signatures found in a system.  W-Space systems have a LOT of signatures as all content is based around exploration - by a lot the minimum number of signatures has been 20; with the avg for a simple system is 30 - and for a complex system: 50 signatures (max signatures has been 61 so far).  This make is difficult to pick up a specific type of signature (