Hands of Justice

What we have played => EVE Online => Topic started by: peo on January 27, 2009, 08:09:43 AM

Title: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: peo on January 27, 2009, 08:09:43 AM
Was thinking a bit about the corp training some pvp as a group, of course have no idea about the interest in it :).
But in low sec there are lots of pirates as we know.
I thought that trying to kill a few of them could be a good training for future pvp actions.
That is we could form a "fleet" from what we can field and go hunting to train the basics we might need.

So what do people think? Is this a good idea or am I completely off the rocker here :)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 09:32:39 AM
Not a bad idea at all.  If you wanted to start with - we could log into SISI (essentially free ships/fittings) and divide into n groups.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on January 27, 2009, 10:50:11 AM
I think it's a very good idea, especially with 0.0 and W-space coming up. Everybody who goes along with the team to there will need to know/practice how to fly in fleets, and how to defend/attack.
Fleet logistics can be done in high sec (maneuvering and such), combat in lowsec, we'll just repeat Agony course  ;)

SISI also possibility, but will there be adversaries there?

And are these fleet fit websites we used in agony course available for free somewhere?
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: peo on January 27, 2009, 10:58:15 AM
SiSi could work as well initially at least. But I think there is a risk that you use to expensive fits compared to what you would for real in such a environment.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 11:17:30 AM
Aye - you could put an expensive fit on - but you would also be able to compare an expensive fit vs a real-fit.
There are people on SISI you could fight against - or we could just divide ourselves into groups and fight against each other.
I'm mostly thinking of it as a way to practice some moves, setups and to get used to the hands shaking.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: peo on January 27, 2009, 11:19:53 AM
Aye - you could put an expensive fit on - but you would also be able to compare an expensive fit vs a real-fit.
There are people on SISI you could fight against - or we could just divide ourselves into groups and fight against each other.
I'm mostly thinking of it as a way to practice some moves, setups and to get used to the hands shaking.


Ok so how do one go about getting into sisi?
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 11:32:21 AM
Start here: http://handsofjustice.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=618.0
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: vacuum on January 27, 2009, 12:00:32 PM
Aye - you could put an expensive fit on - but you would also be able to compare an expensive fit vs a real-fit.
There are people on SISI you could fight against - or we could just divide ourselves into groups and fight against each other.
I'm mostly thinking of it as a way to practice some moves, setups and to get used to the hands shaking.


Learning to bubble/gate camp 101. etc etc.
I can write a few articles on the subject as well.

Vac
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Rubino on January 27, 2009, 12:23:48 PM
Good thinking :)

I've started some logistics on SISI and when they're all together I'll move them to an NPC station in 0.0.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Jarkko on January 27, 2009, 03:10:28 PM
I'd be very willing to take part in some fleet manouver training. At least how to move as group, what to look out for, etc, could be prolly done quite fast (?) and in high-sec too. Already got some nice advice last night when hunting that canflipper (align ship so that it can warp in very fast, etc), but I am hungering for more info and practise :)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Mangala on January 27, 2009, 04:22:49 PM
I'd sooner do this on TQ were actual risk based "training" is present, although getting the group together, giving it a practice or two is best for SiSi I do agree - just lets not go to FD- (big FFA type system on SiSi - then once people feel happy enough start giving it a proper chuck in the real EVE universe.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on January 28, 2009, 12:35:11 AM
I'll think about how to give maneuvering training (i.e. reread and rethink Agony course). If more ppl but Swuul would like to enter, gladly, otherwise I'll try to give a useful private course   ;)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: peo on January 28, 2009, 05:50:26 AM
I'll think about how to give maneuvering training (i.e. reread and rethink Agony course). If more ppl but Swuul would like to enter, gladly, otherwise I'll try to give a useful private course   ;)

Need it as well :)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Rubino on January 28, 2009, 09:46:12 AM
So let's setup a schedule to start with - how about Mon/Wed/Fri evenings between 6pm & 8pm Eve time?
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: peo on January 28, 2009, 10:04:47 AM
Sure, lets make a "signup" for friday to start with in this thread?
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Rubino on January 28, 2009, 10:08:22 AM
I've frigs, cruisers, destroyers, AF and some dictors collected so far.  Additionally I've a selection of T1 anchorable bubbles.
If you let me know what ships/modules/ammo you want - I'll bring it all to one station in or near to 0.0.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Jarkko on January 28, 2009, 10:20:02 AM
Yes, I would be available on Friday evening, prolly a bit after 18 server time though.

I don't yet have a jump clone, is that a problem?
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: peo on January 28, 2009, 10:27:49 AM
I've frigs, cruisers, destroyers, AF and some dictors collected so far.  Additionally I've a selection of T1 anchorable bubbles.
If you let me know what ships/modules/ammo you want - I'll bring it all to one station in or near to 0.0.

On sisi?
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Rubino on January 28, 2009, 10:36:02 AM
Aye
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: peo on January 28, 2009, 10:53:34 AM
Aye

Ok, I'll log on there later and pick stuff up. Probably I'll use a vigil hehe best learning what I'll initially be flying for real :)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Jarkko on January 28, 2009, 11:29:25 AM
Aaah, SISI. Need to finally figure out how to get there then  :P
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: peo on January 28, 2009, 11:37:24 AM
Aaah, SISI. Need to finally figure out how to get there then  :P

Follow the guide posted :)
Didn't take long at all once I did that hehe :)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on January 28, 2009, 11:56:01 AM
The fleet/flying course I intend to give doesnt involve any pewpew, so no sisi needed for that, just hisec EVE QR will do...
I have exam next friday, so I will set it up after that date (it: reading, writing in forum and giving the actual course).
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Macrune on January 28, 2009, 04:51:45 PM
The time schedule will be a little tough for me guys. Most days i dont get home from work until some time between 4 - 8 pm if im working days and even then i dont tend to be able to give my undivided attention to the screen until the kids are in bed (post 8 pm). Thats why if u see me on prior to then its like to be as a semi afk miner.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Mangala on January 28, 2009, 04:53:11 PM
I'd lik to take part in this - whenever/wherever and give some fcing a go too - although wouldnt want to step on Saf's toes in that regards either :)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on January 28, 2009, 05:35:27 PM
Quote
I'd lik to take part in this - whenever/wherever and give some fcing a go too - although wouldnt want to step on Saf's toes in that regards either
I've been thinking about this yesterday.
I am a noob. The only pro I got is that I am a noob who did a course.

What I've been thinking is that I'd be irritated if more experienced players would correct me all the time, put doubts to the things I say etc.
What I wóúld like from experienced players is that they add their knowledge to 'my course'.
I guess (hope) this is understandable and not too cocky from my side.

The only way possible to make these 2 things possible I could come up with is again to copy Agony. -> i.e. have two (or more) FC's, but serial, not parallel. As can be seen in more complex fleet operations / courses, having more than one person calling the shots is not only irritating to the person trying to lead, but also confusing for the rest of the ppl.

So there are a number of possibilities IMO:
- I give the course and ppl participating just ask questions because they want to expand their knowledge and otherwise shut it
- Somebody more experienced gives the course and ppl partic.... etc
- We have more ppl giving the course, but in a serial way, which takes a bit of organizing between the FC's about who does what.

All of the above are fine by me. Third option sounds like most fun to me. Only reason I offered to do so is because I had the idea and did the agony course, so I have some knowledge to dish out. There are ppl among us who have more knowledge to dish out and they are very welcome to give a course to help ppl grow in my place. In that case I'd be very happy to join the group for fun and practice while neatly keeping my mouth shut   ;)



Why I have to make things so complicated is beyond me too  :-\
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Mangala on January 28, 2009, 05:37:41 PM
Your course matey, Im happy for you to lead, you to do the informing and such. I'll happily be quiet.  Also gets you FC experience, without combat, but it all starts somewhere :)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on January 28, 2009, 05:45:05 PM
well... if ppl have jumpclones and wish to go into lowsec/0.0 with some cheap frigs I guess a more experienced person could mebbe lead the gang better. This implicitly was the serial part I had in mind...

I'd also like to do some sparring with you or other ppl about what to involve in the fleet movement course. Good to have some feedback.



And @ mac: the course will prolly only last about an hour or so (mind: I still have to think what I will implement, so it can also be 30 or 90 mins, w.e.). If we can't get all ppl together for one course, I'd be happy to do a 2nd go, tailored to ppls availability.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Rubino on January 29, 2009, 05:20:19 PM
I've setup a POS on SISI in EOA-ZC (0.0 space) and will be dropping off stuff there today.
There will be spare ships at the POS.
Grab yourself a ship & set it up as you want (don't forget ammo) and drop it off at Kubinen and it'll be jumped down.
I also have a Rorqual setup with a Clone Vat at Kubinen - so give me a nudge when you want to setup your clone and then you'll be able to get there without manually hopping.
There's a station in Nearby Akkora I think - so you can also use the market/clone there when you're in 0.0.

The idea behind 0.0 is that we can bubble a gate, play dictors, Warp Disrruption Fields - whereas in higher sec you're limited.
You'll also be able to play with the 0.0 rats to get an idea what they're like, how your tank holds, etc.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Jarkko on January 30, 2009, 07:07:06 AM
As usual, I am dazed and confused.

Could somebody please give a list for todays practise?

1) What should I read up first?

2) Where am I supposed to be?

3) When am I supposed to be there?

4) What am I supposed to arrive in?

5) How long is the thingy supposed to last?

6) Is there free beer?
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on January 30, 2009, 10:46:18 AM
dunno about the thing rub is setting up
the thing i was planning to teach (basic fleet flight course) is planned for somewhere next week (if still needed then)
ill do a short writeup about it in the next couple of days
free beer available at my house (ticket to holland not included, i can pick you up from the airport though...)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Jarkko on January 30, 2009, 11:23:57 AM
Ok, so there is no thingy planned for tonight then? Damn, was looking forward to getting some practical advice... Snif, how can I survive now?
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on January 30, 2009, 11:28:00 AM
well, as i said, i dont know what Rubino has planned for today. I too heard something was being set up at SiSi, but havent paid much attention to it, as I am busy with preparing for my exam, so ask Rub   :)
I will be somewhat more available and out of my own world in 2 hours or so.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: peo on January 30, 2009, 11:28:35 AM
Ok, so there is no thingy planned for tonight then? Damn, was looking forward to getting some practical advice... Snif, how can I survive now?

I think that rubs sisi thing is tonight :)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Rubino on January 30, 2009, 12:07:28 PM
The thing on SISI is just a general way to try things out and get used to how some things work.
The main issue with SISI is that the mirror is currently old - so your skills will be out of date.

You guys ever jumped into a bubble or had one appear around you or know how to get out, etc..
It is a place that you can see what happens when you get smart-bombed or somebody assigns fighters to you or on you :)
Some things that should also be covered: scouting out a SS ship, warping at range, tackling, POS activities (refueling, using the corp hanger, ship array) etc - a chance to bring together some of the skills you have and the things you've read about but maybe not attempted yet.

I was thinking more that I and one or two others bubble/camp a gate and your team work out what to do.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: peo on January 30, 2009, 06:34:18 PM
How many do we need to be for it to work? (when sisi is up that is)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Mangala on January 30, 2009, 08:44:46 PM
Sucks about SiSi, really wanted to give camping and camp-busting a chuck - even it was on SiSi :)

Either way, I look forward to what Saf has in store for us.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on January 31, 2009, 11:03:24 AM
Ok, a first set-up of what I would like to treat in this brief course:


Feedback on this short list welcome.  :)

I will have to think this out a bit more (what to tell about all this etc), to prevent it becoming a 10 minute class in which you did some things here and there but not really know why.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Rubino on January 31, 2009, 11:49:35 AM
Nice list :)

Would be handy to have something also that covered:
communication model (what comms will be used, when people should hush and listen, what happens when the FC bites the bullet, abbreviations)
fleet warping, waping at optimal, warping objective (who's point man)
tackling
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Mangala on January 31, 2009, 12:03:36 PM
Aye very good list there Saf, covers the basics everyone needs to know in roaming or camping situations.  I'd second Rubs suggestion about comms discipline in this regards too, although I think in a close knit group like ours, we'd be good at those anyways ;)  Its larger groups where comms gets messy really :D
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on January 31, 2009, 12:13:08 PM
I could do a short 'lecture' ( :D) about coms.
Course is meant to be a very, very basic course about... flying basically. Things like tackling I'll leave to a separate combat course  :)

Rub, what do you mean with
Quote
warping objective (who's point man)
?


Edit-ed post with your suggestions
Even more suggestions still welcome  :)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Rubino on January 31, 2009, 12:26:58 PM
One of the issues with mixed groups is that some people have an optimal of 5km - while others have an optimal of 60km.
To deal with this usually the tacklers/cov-ops is at optimal range to the target and the rest then warp to the person at their optimal.

A common approach is that the prober/cov-ops scans out a target and then gets within range between the target and in line with a celestial (ie the sun). 
People warping from the celestial then, when they come out of warp - can fire at optimal for a quick kill.  The warping objective was a "lack of coffee" phrase for the designated person to warp to :=)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on January 31, 2009, 12:31:10 PM
Ok, short student list might be handy too:

- Jarkko
- peo
- mac
- mang
- rubi  ::)


- most evenings are ok by me, think course will last about an hour maximum, so shouldnt be too hard to fit macs 'kidschedule'
- somewhere next week will be fine for me, wednesday soonest, next weekend ok too (or whenever)
- fly a T1 frig and T1 frig only, which one really doesnt matter, fit wont matter either, its just about the flying
- hi-sec only (Anttiri and one or two jumps around it), so dont worry about jump clones
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Jarkko on January 31, 2009, 04:00:09 PM
If Mac could provide a list of times that suit him, perhpas the rest of us could pick from those?

For me, I put kids to bed around 18:30-19:20 (server time) every night. Depending if it is my turn to read the bed-time story or not, I'll be away during that time 15-30 minutes. Other than that, if I am not at work, I can schedule things as long as I have at least some forward notice (unless I have the dead-early shift next morning, when I will head to bed at 20:00 server time at the very latest :) ).
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on February 04, 2009, 03:38:21 PM
ok, think we better do this course before we head to the monolith and such (http://handsofjustice.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=680.0 (http://handsofjustice.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=680.0))

we could either do it thursday-sunday evening, or mebbe right before we head out to lowsec (so, feb 9th (or 11 or 13)). the last option would need a nod from beo though.

so to make it even clearer:
thu 5th
fri 6th
sat 7th (i prolly wont make this, at brother's birthday this day)
sun 8th
mon 9th

evenings would be best i guess.
preferences plz? (remember, i am willing to give more than one course if not everyone can make it on the same day)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: peo on February 04, 2009, 03:45:14 PM
I'm available anytime (well almost, my frigates are done in 11h so after that :) )
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Mangala on February 04, 2009, 04:28:55 PM
Any evenings good for me, I'll happily start Mondays trip later to have time for this session to be undertaken too :)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Jarkko on February 04, 2009, 05:01:04 PM
Sunday and Monday overlap with other planned corp thingies, don't they?

I guess Friday would be best of those (in addition to Sunday and Monday of course :) ).
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on February 04, 2009, 05:14:24 PM
monday's scheduled monolith trip would be combined with the course, you're right about sunday though...
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Mangala on February 04, 2009, 05:15:21 PM
monday's scheduled monolith trip would be combined with the course, you're right about sunday though...

We could combine it with both the road trip and the missioning (missions are a reasonably passive area to play in and gives us a chance to listen to your class while shooting the npcs) :)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on February 05, 2009, 07:03:00 PM
Quote
- rubi   ::)
sorry, missed you saying coming along  :p

right now i'll schedule for tomorrow
- Friday 6th, 21:00 EveTime (see my next post)

If that isnt ok with ppl after all the backup date will be monday, time dependent on beo's plans
earlier on friday would be fine by me too, trying to accomodate mac
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Rubino on February 05, 2009, 07:10:31 PM
Good with me :)
(subject to change, the waxing moon and the boredom of the cat)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: peo on February 05, 2009, 07:24:23 PM
fine by me (might be a smidgen late as stargate atlantis ends at 21 eve time)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Mangala on February 05, 2009, 07:36:06 PM
I shouldve done with mucking about on Left for Dead by then, if I miss that, then I'll join the session before we head off to the EVE Gate Monday.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on February 06, 2009, 01:18:45 PM
hmm, something RL came up,

sorry guys, rescheduling to saturday 2100 evetime

should be back from brother by then
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Jarkko on February 06, 2009, 01:56:35 PM
Hmmm... not sure I can make it tomorrow evening. Was planning to go out with the mrs tomorrow evening (we are working next weekend, so can't celebrate Valentines then), but all our four kids are ill atm, so if they don't feel any better tomorrow, I don't think we can leave them home with the baby-sitter. Then again, we might get the flu ourselves too, so remains to be seen. I'll know for sure tomorrow afternoon.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: peo on February 06, 2009, 02:01:02 PM
Tomorrow shouldn't be a problem for me. (I have to little to do...)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Jarkko on February 06, 2009, 02:40:54 PM
Not directly linked to PvP, but... Maybe somebody could tonight arrange a course on how to efficiently use broadcasts etc. Would be mighty useful in PvE too, and at least I have about zero understanding on how to use the broadcasting to anything  :-[ 

Like how to broadcast who should be nuked first, asking help against a spesific target etc. And altough I have figured out how to use Watchlist, I do think it could be used more efficiently (I use it to see who has aggro and/or who is taking damage and to get closer to them; also useful to lock targets when I need to rep them).
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on February 06, 2009, 02:44:15 PM
was already thinking that (in addition?) to tomorrow, I'd maybe give an ad-hoc course tonight, but earlier. We could address this too.

no guarantees about tonight though (sorry it's getting so messy)
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Jarkko on February 07, 2009, 04:29:24 PM
I'll know for sure tomorrow afternoon.
We are not going out, but we'll watch some from the DVD. So won't necessarily be there tonight for the practice.
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Mangala on February 08, 2009, 08:10:22 AM
Saf - had a thought - want to give a class tonight on the way to Isinokka? 

Basically everyone who wants to attend the class and then do missions all travels down together, with you giving the class as we move?  Kills 2 birds with one stone?
Title: Re: PvP (group) training idea
Post by: Warcold on February 08, 2009, 09:39:49 AM
Aye, was hoping we could do something tonight, yesterday only Hrod was there, so we decided to move to today/monday.

[edit]dependent on if i can make it at 6pm... if i cant, feel free to give the course in my stead and i'll join you guys later[/edit]