Hands of Justice
What we have played => EVE Online => Topic started by: Warcold on November 06, 2009, 09:28:45 AM
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I had a chat with Bethor yesterday. The trouble they were in was that they were kicked out of their old alliance for some dumb reason. I already knew this as they haven't really made different groups in their forum yet, meaning I got near full access, but I thought I'd hold it back from you till they figured it all out.
Anyway, they are planning to form a new alliance and Bethor asked me if we were interested to join up with them (as seperate corps, join in alliance i mean). I know you guys reacted with a nono earlier, when we just left Fountain, but as some months have gone by your ideas might have changed. The alliance will try to focus on WH-space and PvP, but (my guess is) as they are rather inexperienced in PvP, they won't go full blown PvP right from the start. It will be a part of living in WH-space I guess.
I will have to have another chat with him to get a broader idea about their vision of this, because I can imagine esp. for less active ppl it won't be the best thing to live in the dynamic world WH-space is. But I guess that because NERF is industry heavy they will also remain based in hi-/losec. Atm they are based in Hedal (losec), but also mission a lot in (minnie)hisec.
What are your thoughts/ideas about this?
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Depends.
I'd still like to get into 0.0 at some point so any alliance should have that as a goal. (and not the renter bs but for real).
Also, decission making. How will that work?
I'd not say yes to an alliance which decides things by secret committee again.
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Beth being a RL mate of mine and us being one of at least 3 starter corps (also partly paying for the alliance setup cost i suppose) I wouldnt worry too much about us not having a say in things. However, with us being a relative small corp (about what... 5-10 RL peeps that play on a (semi-)regular basis), I wouldnt expect us having superpowers either. But this will need to be fleshed out in further talks.
About 0.0: NERF would like to go truesec sooner or later, but from what I understood rather a bit later then sooner. They keep talking about Dominion expansion, so mebbe around that time. This can also become clearer after some more talk ofc. Thought I'd pick up some general opinions before we move ahead with more talks. We don't want to repeat the Fountain move, where some ppl were either not prepared or backing up the move for 100%, leading to frustration.
In my optimum picture, we would stay both hisec and 0.0 based, with infrastructure planned and realized at both locations. This way the casual corp that is MAADI might be able to offer everyone something they like. Don't know if that is a utopia though... We should not expect 0.0 to be easy though, mebbe a mistake some of us made last time.
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/me says hi from horrible place of pain - If I could chop off my head I would :(
Anyways, Dominon is sooner, its in a month, so I take it their potential 0.0 plans are much after that?
Personally, I may sit out of this decision process, given Im off on a jaunt in a matter of months, but I'll still mull over the thread and offer my opinion, when i can think straight.
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Ofc any 0.0 move will have to be when we can actually establish ourselves there and hold a system or two (having much more isn't that needed after dominon I think).
I can understand us not having a final say or so, just some say heck just clear and timely information and goals is usually enough.
Where I grew fed up with ez was that they didn't give information and the command structure was to say the least not good.
The problem we had with the move to 0.0 was probably that it coincided with summer, a few stopped playing and then red went awol which meant the logistics got fecked up. It also meant we couldn't get proper industry going to build our capitals.
If we are to join there needs to be a clear goal, a clear system of information, a proper and working way to lead (while democracy doesn't work in the day to day operations it sure works for medium to long term planning).
Basically the mittanis stuff about how to not make alliances is a good way to start.
As for having both 0.0 and high-sec, well I think thats one of the main problems we had last time. Hopefully when we go to 0.0 next time we will have better logistics (we already do with Noj JF and carrier, me being JF ready and mang having a rorqual on a alt) and have a much clearer picture of what we are to do there. Also with dominion the need to have everyone spread around in low profit areas and having oodles of poses is going to be less important and that will save A LOT of stress.
I'm ok with joining if we can somehow get a long term goal and a clear/good way of deciding stuff. Even if most of this isn't going to be super important before we move (high/low-sec alliance doesn't need to defend themselves that much) it is good to have the framework from the start.
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I posted this on their forum, if you have comments or additions, let me know.
Ok, the first reactions on our (MAADI) forum are dribbling in.
Where some months ago (when we just moved out of Fountain) there was a lot of opposition against joining an alliance, now people are quite open to joining an (this) alliance.
There are however some concerns and questions:
- In EZ the communication from the leadership was... well... crap, to put it lightly. How will the commandstructure of the new alliance look like and how would MAADI fit in this? And what are ideas about communication from alliance leadership to the underlying corps/members?
- I hear ideas about moving to WH-space and ideas about going to 0.0 sec. Do you have an idea on what, how, when and where about both WH and 0.0?
- One of the most important things: What will be the alliance's goals? (short term, mid, long?) If those ideas arent in place yet, how will these plans be formed?
- What will be expected of MAADI(-members)? We are a small corp and will probably stay small because as far as I know, we are happy with how MAADI is -> digital friends from multiple games, joined together through our forum. This means we won't have large numbers of players to offer and though our coffers are nicely filled, like Beth mentioned elsewhere, our income is smallish, so don't expect us to be huge spenders. Our player base is mostly casual players, looking for good fun, when RL (and the absence of other shiney games) permits. What we can offer though are players that have seen several parts of new eden, looking for fun. We are a mix of traders, industrials and WH-ers/missioneers, with most of us having some PvP experience. Our mining section has all but died out.
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Think Beth answered my questions thoroughly, discuss plz
Saf wrote:
- In EZ the communication from the leadership was... well... crap, to put it lightly. How will the commandstructure of the new alliance look like and how would MAADI fit in this? And what are ideas about communication from alliance leadership to the underlying corps/members?
Leaderships has always been hard to put into place.
Win has put down a basic structure, it needs work. but we need the opinion of other corps to help us with that :D
Board of directors
Presindent / CEO of Alliance (ie. the guy who created alliance)
2 or 4 additional members from all alliance corps.
Board of CEOs
This include ALL the member corps CEOs
1) BoD (Board of Directors) is the highest command authority in alliance, if this grp deside we go this way then we go.
2) The total members of BoD is always odd, so in case vote there never will be tie.
3) Total numbers of BoD should not go above 5 members, as this will turn it to shouting match.
4) The work of BoD is the Grant lines, meatings 4 to 6 times per year.
5) BoC (Board of CEOs) is the day to day forum where Grand alliance goals are broken down to corp managable and so on.
6) BoC answers to BoD ie. alliance rules break on corp lvl
7) BoD members should not be CEOs of there respected corps, rather members who are trusted inside there corp to present the corp views in alliance lvl
=> break in BoC and BoD goals and agenda, ie both grps are not run by the same ppl.
8)Clear working structure and definination of who and what handles things in alliance lvl
=> monthly report where we stand
Saf wrote:
- I hear ideas about moving to WH-space and ideas about going to 0.0 sec. Do you have an idea on what, how, when and where about both WH and 0.0?
We have plans of helping out phoibe corporation in a wormhole, big combined op. But with us no longer beeing in SEALS and them not beeing in their former alliance. We would just move into WH asap. Basically we will not force members to enter, as NERF feels we need a high sec pressence too.
However we would need all types of players in the WH.
Saf wrote:
- One of the most important things: What will be the alliance's goals? (short term, mid, long?) If those ideas arent in place yet, how will these plans be formed?
short term:
get formed
med term:
Alliance WH op
long term:
0.0
No details yet, as well we have no partner to discuss details with atm. We would like the corporations wanting to join the alliance to discuss this. But this is the basic structure
Saf wrote:
- What will be expected of MAADI(-members)? We are a small corp and will probably stay small because as far as I know, we are happy with how MAADI is -> digital friends from multiple games, joined together through our forum. This means we won't have large numbers of players to offer and though our coffers are nicely filled, like Beth mentioned elsewhere, our income is smallish, so don't expect us to be huge spenders. Our player base is mostly casual players, looking for good fun, when RL (and the absence of other shiney games) permits. What we can offer though are players that have seen several parts of new eden, looking for fun. We are a mix of traders, industrials and WH-ers/missioneers, with most of us having some PvP experience. Our mining section has all but died out.
For both 0.0 and WH we would need al types of players. So i see no problem. About the not growing, thats up to you. The alliance has no wish to interfere with corporation policy
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Seems ok in principle.
What precautions are to be taken to not have someone do a "bob"? (while initially not that important it might become eventually)
Weak/Decentralized: If you think you may be in a decentralized alliance, run away with your assets as fast as you can. These alliances exist in the rare pockets of 0.0 where there is no political or military pressure; the flotsam of failed alliances and isk-seeking carebears find regions which are not actively under military contest and set up shop purely to settle down and make money. At the first sign of trouble, these alliances implode, not due to a failure of leadership structure, but because they had no such structure to begin with. The best examples of this class are the 'pet' alliances, those created as a rent-collecting entity by a larger entity. In rare cases, renter alliances may try to break away from their 'landlord' and become independent, such as what happened with Scorched Earth in Wicked Creek a few months ago. But because these entities had no defined leadership before becoming independent, their first halting steps are marked with either apathy or ferocious internal power struggles. Neither situation is good when faced with a military threat; the good times roll until the alliance is forced to defend itself, and then the member corps flee. Other examples of this class include Daisho Syndicate, Shadow of xDeathx, and Aggression.
The central leadership needs to not become weak or decentralized either. I don't agree with Mittani on democracy since the pitfalls can be avoided. But decisions regarding the day to day operations need to not depend on full participation in the BoD either. We need to have a strong but reasonably democratic system of governance :)
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With the alliance still forming, I can imagine the proposed structure is not definite.
I agree this might be a possible pitfall, but it is also something that can be discussed at a bit later stage. IMHO thinking too much about things in an early stage can cause stuff to not be realized at all, but I think this is something where our personalities differ.
For now I think it is more important to focus on the basic fact if we want to join an alliance or keep to ourselves. An alliance provides more people to share things with and offers more possibilities in ops we can do and ISK we can earn, but it also demands more structure and responsibilities. Keeping to ourselves offers more freedom and a more laid back way off playing, but possibly lacks diversity. Once we know where we stand we can decide if we join this alliance or maybe look for other grounds.
I am kinda concerned that only peo offers an opinion. I understand Mang keeps himself to the rear, but I see more EvE players logging in to this forum, not expressing their thoughts on this. I think it won't be a good idea to join the/an alliance based on the opinion of just two MAADI members.
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Sounds good to me, im all for it.
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I am kinda concerned that only peo offers an opinion. I understand Mang keeps himself to the rear, but I see more EvE players logging in to this forum, not expressing their thoughts on this. I think it won't be a good idea to join the/an alliance based on the opinion of just two MAADI members.
Oligarchy and dictatorship ftw ;)
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In my opinion more people to play with is good. I would like to see us back on 0.0 at some point. My expectations are that we have some kind of say on how the alliance operates, But honestly I am a casual player and just want to log in an have the freedom to have fun. My vote would be "Go for it!"
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Something that might come up later, recruitment of new corps to the alliance.
How will decisions be made on that?
(Yes I think to much hehe)
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Just a note from me - I'd had some concerns that my going away may fragment the corp, cause it to fail and people leave EVE or it, so I think this is possibly a great solution to keep you all together and give you access to more activities and people, so if I was to say anything right now I'd say go for it.
A chance to get in on alliance ground up - every alliance needs forum whores :D - is an excellent thing as well, as long as there are some shared values and there does seem to be...
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Sounds good to me. Not that i play much these days, but ill try to keep Noj with the JF aviable if the alliance ends up going 0.0. :)
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Posted this on their forum. Bolded part is something we should discuss here and now IMHO.
All MAADI members that have voiced their opinion so far have a positive attitude towards joining this alliance. So I think we should have a talk somewhere in the future about the how, when and what (no time for that myself today). MAADI will still have to decide who our contact person for this early process should be. I have been so far, but I'm not really the leadership kinda guy, although I can if I must ;)
For now, may I humbly suggest you leader folks read Mitani's write-up on alliances. Not as a comment that you do things wrong, far from that: I am quite impressed with your plans and ideas about how the alliance should function, but it's a good read and might point out some (future) possible pitfalls you/we should avoid.
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/66701 (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/66701)
ttyl,
Saf
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Posted this on their forum. Bolded part is something we should discuss here and now IMHO.
All MAADI members that have voiced their opinion so far have a positive attitude towards joining this alliance. So I think we should have a talk somewhere in the future about the how, when and what (no time for that myself today). MAADI will still have to decide who our contact person for this early process should be. I have been so far, but I'm not really the leadership kinda guy, although I can if I must ;)
For now, may I humbly suggest you leader folks read Mitani's write-up on alliances. Not as a comment that you do things wrong, far from that: I am quite impressed with your plans and ideas about how the alliance should function, but it's a good read and might point out some (future) possible pitfalls you/we should avoid.
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/66701 (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/66701)
ttyl,
Saf
/me channels a pokemon character
Saf:
I choose YOU!
(Not serious about the above).
Seriously It should be one of you folks, Id prefer to keep backseating this to be honest given my time constraints of late :)
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PS - forum link?
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You can start being contact for now saf :)
If you mess up we'll pod you a few times ;)
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If you mess up we'll pod you a few times ;)
id pay to see that :P
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If you mess up we'll pod you a few times ;)
id pay to see that :P
dunno, EvE's like... 10 quid a month? I'd welcome you back for one, guess I'd not be the only one ;)
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PS - forum link?
Contact Sin about that I guess, I got forum access through him. Direct link would be http://www.newedenreconforce.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=468&sid=16ddc59cb1e3dcc8315f472af0300784 (http://www.newedenreconforce.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=468&sid=16ddc59cb1e3dcc8315f472af0300784) but guess you can't access without 'autorataah'
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PS - forum link?
Contact Sin about that I guess, I got forum access through him. Direct link would be http://www.newedenreconforce.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=468&sid=16ddc59cb1e3dcc8315f472af0300784 (http://www.newedenreconforce.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=468&sid=16ddc59cb1e3dcc8315f472af0300784) but guess you can't access without 'autorataah'
Beth's reply to the post I pasted here:
Thanks for the link, will check it.
And feel free to invite other officers etc here to discuss
So feel free to register, guess peo and mang are the other 'officers' in MAADI?
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Aparantly so, I'll try to get it done soon. Bit busy today.
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I'll be joining their channel this week - would like this alliance thingy to go ahead if they'd have such a small group (who may be recruiting.. :D)
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Registered on their forum at least :) can't see anything apart from 2 mostly empty threads hehe :)
I'll get more active soon again, just felt so "meh" about everything last couple of weeks basically been playing freecell...
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Had a chat with Sin today. Forming of alliance is waiting for him to finish the required skill (15 days iirc). I gave him a go for MAADI to join.
All MAADI directors (Mang, Hrod, Saf) (will) have access to the CEO chat channel of the alliance, plus will be able to activate (or wotcha callit?) ppl joining the alliance forum (which will be a seperate branch from NERF's current forum.
So I advise everyone to register on http://www.newedenreconforce.com/forum/ and get a first hand idea of what is happening. And get to know your future Alliance mates. This alliance will be smallish to start with, with shorter lines between all players I hope. Ofc, you have influence on this yourself by socializing with these folks.
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Had a chat with Sin today. Forming of alliance is waiting for him to finish the required skill (15 days iirc). I gave him a go for MAADI to join.
All MAADI directors (Mang, Hrod, Saf) (will) have access to the CEO chat channel of the alliance, plus will be able to activate (or wotcha callit?) ppl joining the alliance forum (which will be a seperate branch from NERF's current forum.
So I advise everyone to register on http://www.newedenreconforce.com/forum/ and get a first hand idea of what is happening. And get to know your future Alliance mates. This alliance will be smallish to start with, with shorter lines between all players I hope. Ofc, you have influence on this yourself by socializing with these folks.
Muahhaha my plans of domination...
oops I shouldn't have said that ;)
Sounds good. I've already registered, should probably get the link saved hehe :)
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Aesome. I have a few weeks to get to know people which is good, before they have months to forget me :D
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http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Wicked_Creek
Strangely empty region :)
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Registered on the NERF forum, anyone able to sort access (i'll bug Sin ingame later too).
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I can't do this yet apparently, so bugging Sin will be the way to go...
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I can't do this yet apparently, so bugging Sin will be the way to go...
Figured :)
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I got access without bugging anyone hehe :P
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Everyone who have access do join and suggest names for the alliance.
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I registered just to have it done. Awaiting access. :)
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Current leading candidate for name is "Beyond Control (NATO)"
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Im registered. Now I just need access.
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Sinedia placed an order for the domain www.beyond-control.net so we go with that name :)
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Im registered. Now I just need access.
In the user panel apply for maadi - and I think it will get sorted that way?
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I did that. It got moved to pending memberships.