Anyone else think mmo's are getting too casual?

[Mangala]

Just been ranting (surprise) about the recent revamps to breeland in lotro, and obviously the old forest changes over time and it got me to thinking, are MMO's catering to the really useless casual types more and more these days, rather than anyone who enjoys the fun side of challenges that gaming can bring?

I mean, from changes such as lowering exp (levelling games only) to make it faster for people to get to "endgame" as thats the perceived place to be to really enjoy a game, usually skipping HUGE amounts of content on the way (Yes endgame is important in the games were it is present, but the journey is just as, if not more so?); to area revamps to make it less time consuming for people to get stuff done.  I know the latter does help some people, but even me with random amounts of available time would like to log in to something and just do stuff as it comes, not be all "go to A", "go to b" etc etc etc, find my own way...

Then of course there is "quest-helpers" and map radar systems that point people in some cases right to the actual items... WAR kinda got these right, but I still turned that one off as it wasnt a feature anyone who READS quest descriptions needs...

Or am I just a bitter MMO vet with a pulpit?

[Mangala]

Also, i know serial alters will argue against me, but even as a budding one, I find such changes irritating

[Dlarah]

I noticed things had changed in Breeland, but it seems like Breeland have gone trough a change between every time i try to play lotro! 
It is the same thing in wow... XP needed to level have been nerfed several times, but they didnt take the same step as in lotro where you could suddenly gain levels based on how much "spare" xp you had. Soon you can get mounts as low as lvl 20 and epic flying skill is going to cost only 4000g wich means i would have been able to buy the skill for yet another char with the gold that could have been saved. Epic gear is extremely easy to get now, and will get even easier next patch. In some ways i like this as it means i can see more raid stuff without being in a raidguild farming content over and over, but at the same time things starts to feel too easy and leaves me just waiting for a MMO that can finally make me quit that game. Raids are the only challenge now(and they arent exactly hard unless you are undergeared), but as i am casual with no intention of going hardcore raider this means i get bored fast.

Oh and i have leveled loads of alts on wow, most of them before xp nerfs and even if most of the changes done should help leveling and gearing new alts it doesnt mean i like it. 
As for lotro i seem to have trouble getting past Breeland on my alts... Finally got main to 28 now however and is questing trough Lonelands and North Downs so getting there but its taking ages!

[Mangala]

Lonelands and North Downs so getting there but its taking ages!

Used to take longer

My alts are either in those areas or closing in, but I tend to have severe MMO adhd during the summer, which isnt helped when i see issues I can take umbrage with...

[Keggi]

my view is that everyone should lvl as was originally intended on thier first toon and maybe a mechanism to turn on the extra xp and quicker lvling after that.

wow will eventually let long time players start as the dk's do at 55 well thats how it seems to be going in wow.

[Dlarah]

The whole start at 55 was a big fail. 25 Levels doesnt seem to be enough to learn that DK's dont need spellpower and what to do with your skills. 

[Kurtt]

Yes and no.

Yes from the levelling perspective. I love levelling toons, and don't mind repeating content, as the objective is to find new content that you missed first time, in my opinion.

But no from the end game point of view. The biggest thing thats preventing me from rolling a new WoW toon to enjoy vanilla again is the thought of having to face the gear race once I hit level cap. It really turns me off.

I've yet to see an MMO that presented me with fun end game content that didn't leave you feeling pressured. I'm hoping my two big new MMO's (CO and TOR) offer something for the casual gamer at end game.

Just my 2p.

[Warcold]

What also might be an issue is that they are trying to make it easier for newer players to get where most ppl are at -> higher lvls.
I know I am a 'I wanna have what they got'-person. It's not pretty, but it's there. Being able to catch up with other ppl easier can be considered a plus that way.

But I understand where you are coming from.
I don't know how it was before, but I think you can still play LOTRO full up, doing all side quests etc.
Maybe it's also you passing through quests for the 5th or so time. How I see you guys racing through GB and me running to keep up, not really being able to see what is what and where... I can imagine things seem easier when you know what is behind every next corner.

[Gunnarr]

I don't like the stuff getting made easier. Actually it's the main reason I quit wow; it got dumbed down too much. But at the moment I just can't seem to be able to find a MMO that'll get me hooked instead!
Streamlining levelling for alts is one thing, completely tossing the aggro-system and giving people permission to nuke all-out without regard for anything is boring.
Regarding LotRO, I don't know how it was - but I do remember absolutely LOVING the atmosphere in Old Forest and thinking it was a pity it wasn't actually very dangerous - as I understand it used to be.

[Jarkko]

In general I do not like the idea of making games too easy.

However, Old Forest in LOTRO was not difficult. It was masochism. A fucked up pile of bugged game mechanincs. I had roots hitting me when I was on the road running for my life towards Bree. Half the mobs were un-targettable most of the time (oh how I hated the "befuddled" marker there, the mobs were hitting for full, but they could not be hits....). Sorry, but I really can't see how that would have been desirable for anyone.

OTOH, is Old Forest too easy now? Yes it is. But lets not pretend it was anywhere near being well designed in the past.

[Caradir]

i see good and bad in it really.

in Lotro its only hit the starter areas but soloable old forest and book 1 ch11 is wrong ), which does make the following areas seem harder

however the quests do flow better than they used to.

they only increased leveling by 5% 1-50 no boost 50-60. (not that it was needed 50-60 mind its fast as it is)

but i see it eventually hitting the other areas which wouldnt be all bad, makeing GA and Fornost 3 man for a start as trying to get groups for them is nigh impossible, (is it me or do people only care about endgame and not getting there having fun) also book 1s later chapters are impossible to get groups for as no one wants to do book 15 more than once its horrid so making it a difficult solo challenge would be an idea. If youve seen Volume 2 book 8 that idea with npc helpers would rock.

i guess what im saying is its the playerbase that want these changes as they all want the uber gear without working for it, heck they put radiance gear drops in the new 3 mans in moria as people grumbled about doing hardmodes which i think was a bad idea introducing anyways.

[Mangala]

(is it me or do people only care about endgame and not getting there having fun)

i guess what im saying is its the playerbase that want these changes as they all want the uber gear without working for it, heck they put radiance gear drops in the new 3 mans in moria as people grumbled about doing hardmodes which i think was a bad idea introducing anyways.

The playerbase can all go die in a fire then.  And I too enjoy the journey when it isnt made easier so little tommy can get his legendaries in 1hr of play before mummy wipes his ass.

I hate to say it, but Blizzard have fucked over anyone with more than a single well used braincell. And by catering to the masses, despite the overall appeal of the product on release (gear gates were handy imo), they have driven other producers to do the same, resulting in mediocre titles with "suits" pushing for a certain wow-ness in difficulty and overall feel, rather than actually setting a new bar for people to reach.  By pandering to the lowest common denominator (lol kids and housewives (Im looking at my brothers g/f here!)) the MMO market is pushing away the people who gave it its support in the first place and despite getting older/wiser we still play such games for whatever "challenge" and fun we can find, even the overly competitive yanks.

Even CCP have made it easier to get going in eve, but to be fair that was needed

[peo]

WoW seems to have gone a few steps to far yes.
Some steps were probably needed, the reduction from 40 to 25 man raids made a big difference on possibility to get into raiding.
But making the raids easier and easier isn't the right way either, when you can do pickups for everything it has gone to far.

[Mangala]

One thing i do think may happen, Blizzards next MMO may actually move away from the model they have now with WoW.  However if its a starcraft MMO i'd have to avoid it, as I really want a eve style WH40k mmo

[Gorphin]

There's so many people being powerleveled in wow now, just to get to level 80 so that they can do want they want without that problem of leveling that its pretty muched ruined wow.