Class discussions

[Jeremiah]

I'm hesitant to introduce a thread where we discuss individual classes because of the potential they have for arguments.  However, I think t would be useful, for the purpose of working towards Da Plan, for people to introduce to others the classes that they play: strengths, weaknesses, role, expectations from other classes, playstyles, special tricks, tactics etc. I suggest one absolute rule for this though: if you don't play the class, you have nothing useful to say about it so say nothing.  And, a second less absolute rule : restrict it to oRvR where possible since that is where we team up more often.  This could also apply to any Dest classes we may have played to help us understand weaknesses and tactics and how Order is perceived.  Sound good?

[Torgal]

Do it, way I see it there's a forum specifically for the purpose of talking about game mechanics, discussion, advice and class builds. Several class / role specific threads are already going there.

I'd be interested to have insights on several classes too, witch hunter being high on the list since I enjoy the alt I rolled.

[Jeremiah]

I was thinking more of a cross-class discussion. Not so much WH-WH but WH-IB,WP,BW for example but cvlass mechanics is probably the best place for such threads.

[Torgal]

I'm not really sure what you mean by that - I guess you're interested in discussing synergy between classes and (whatever the opposite word is) between order-to-destruction classes? (sorry for the awful sentence structure there - it's been a long day).

I'm not sure I'd have much to contribute towards such a discussion, but I'd be interested in seeing it nonetheless. It seems to me that there's very few examples of real synergy between WAR classes, bizarrely the only instance I can think of is IBs oathfriending each other.

Of course I could be barking up the wrong tree, in which case ignore me.

[Macrune]

Ok class chat.....hmm
runepriest.

Role - Pure healer. A runies DPS isnt worth a damn and to be honest with you apart from maybe chucking the occassional DOT on a destro. ( a runepriest has a DOT that returns the equivalent in healing to the damage done if they spec for it).
Most of the runies healing comes in the form of HOTS. Their instant heal isnt that good and once again if they spec right they can get a BUFF to one of thier HOTS called REGENERATIVE SHIELDING. This little beauty has a 25% chance per tic to increase the targets armor by 1056 for 10 seconds. This will also ignore armor penetration attacks.
I don't agree with GUARD being used on runies (sorry Nushka)  or any healers for that matter. Swordmasters should be up front and runies shouldnt be. Guard should imo be put on WH's or a melee spec shadowwarrior to help with keep them up whilst they are in the thick of it. If a runie is within 30 feet of a Swordie then he/she is to close to the front. Another reason for them to stay back is that wonderful Magnet spell that now seems to be very popular. If you are that close to the front line you are going to get sucked in, pinned and hit just like the melee. At that point you're no longer helping healing but in dire need of healing yourself. A runies HOTS have a 150 ft range so there is no need for them to be too close.

Morals

the two most useful morals ive found so far are..
MOUNTAIN SPIRIT - this is a 2nd level moral and increases the group's armor by 1320 and resists by 504 for 30 seconds at rank 40. It has a 60 second cool down but no range limit so as long as you are in the runies group you get the buff even if you are out of heal range.
VALAYA's SHIELD - Heals group members 2394 health over 15 seconds and gives 375 Action Points over 15 seconds at rank 40. again it has a 60 second cool down and no range limit and unlike MOUNTAIN SPIRIT it has to be spec'd for. Ive spec'd for it and find that alternating VS and MS is a good combo that contributes a great deal to keeping people up. Both these morals can be made more powerfull depending on the stat buffs your armour / weapons and other trinkets have.
From what ive seen the runie tends to come top in the heal charts every time (against the equivalent level hybrid healers which is what you would expect).
I have been messing with my specs and changing them on a regular basis and i will continue to do so right upto 40 when hopefully i will have worked out what spec works best for me. So far going down the VALAYA'S SHIELD tree seems to be working the best but as im only 32 ive still a long way to go.

My expectations from other classes.

Im hopeful that some of my friendly DPS pals (not the tanks as they should stay up front causing as much chaos as my healing allows  ) will keep an eye on me and come to my assistance when the inevitable WE de-cloaks and proceeds to kick my ass all over the place. 

I will update and change this as new idea's / runes etc become available to me.

EDIT-  Either im going mad / blind or someone has spiked my coffee but i could have sworn there was a post directly above mine by Nushka 

[Gunnarr]

A little addition for Runepriests (we seem to be most keen on chatting about this already) :
Nemesis: Melee DPS mainly, particularly witchelves. Marauders pose much less of a threat usually. As far as I can tell witchelves dps is just plain higher, and spikier, they have a nasty few-second silence, and one of their kisses reduces healing by 45% as well. These 3 factors together make it easy for them to spike healers down. That being said, my own experiments with a witchelf seems to indicate that RPs are still a bit harder to get down than an equivalent level Archmage.
Other classes to watch out for: Marauders, as said, then on a "somewhat less dangerous level" sorcerers and squigherders. Most other classes have to either outlevel me or have a very skilled player at the rudder to truly worry me. Most of my deaths are due to being too conspicuous and subsequently focus-fired.

My general reaction to being singled out: Shield. If necessary x2 (Rune of Shielding and Grimnir's shield), and start running away.  Cast rune of regeneration on self. While doing this, check which of the classes mentioned above are targeting me. Detaunt the biggest threat. Proceed with putting more hots up. In order: Rune of Regeneration (as said), then Rune of Mending, Rune of Serenity. Any shields I haven't used yet. If there's any debuffs Cleanse. If not, use Grugni's gift and pray irl.
In case there's just one melee dps on me (or one mdps and a tank or so), I usually try to use Grimnir's shield and the detaunt in sequence rather than at the same time, since one is usually sufficient to be able to outheal the rest of the damage.

[Warcold]

With 4 basic DoTs at lvl 30 (I specced for a 5th), AM is bit less pure healer (and thus fits my playing style better). Unfortunately AM is also bit squishier, making getting nearer to frontline bit dangerous, but necessary to do some dam. Also the debuffs the AM wield tend to have shortish range, making it more neccesary for the Off specced AM to get closer. Even when specced for healing, the AM will still want to put some mastery in debuffing (IMO), making it a medium ranged healer.
Is speccing for dam worth it? Yeah, I think so, hearing Pyth did 50k dam and 60k healing in a scenario, thats quite neat.
I still carry some healing around, 2 HoTs and a groupheal (~650 to party, crits at about 1100 (at lvl 30)), plus 2 of my 3 morales are healing ones, and 3rd gives a neat shield to party.
About ressing: An AM res takes 9 seconds, which is much slower than the 3 sec res of the RP. At lvl 31 though the AM gets insta-res, with 3 sec stun to the AM however.

Still, I agree with Torgal that melee dps might be more in need of the shield, hearing those ppl complain about how fast they die. Drawback may be the survivability of the tanks: if they take half of the damage done to melee dps...

Later more mebbe, going to bed now...

[Stal]

Bright wizard strength is of course damage. Also some crowd control - an area effect root (but most classes can break this), a single-target morale knock-back, and in the Immolation (damage over time) tree a 40% snare/channeled damage which works great on people trying to retreat.

Weakness - doing damage to themselves through explosions at high combustion.  Explosion hits me 50% of the time for 550 at max combustion(level 29).  However max combustion increases the chances of a critical hit and increases the damage of criticals.  I would say an unhealed bright wizard probably does about half the damage of a well-healed one, especially in open RVR where having health below 70% is a flashing light saying *kill this one now*.

I just want to point out how much I love healers.  And tanks to hide behind.  And melee dps who tangle up the other side, get their health down and distract them so they don't notice the BW dots.  And ranged dps...

Aims in ORVR - take out healers and ranged dps from range.  Also anyone hitting my healers, and anyone low health.  Put rain of fire on the stairs when defending a keep.

Tricks - find a shaman, whack some dots on to knock his health down and make sure he has lots of heals over time running, then cast Playing With Fire (immolation tree) which hits the healer on every heal over time tick. Then use my channeled damage/snare to slow him retreating out of range. 

Finally, do I think bright wizards are overpowered?  Yes, expecting either damage or utility to be toned down.  Lot of fun in any case.
 

[Jarkko]

Well, my take (again) on the Salvation specced Warrior Priest (would be btw interesting to know if we have other Salvation WP's in the guild, as I would presume Grace (or even Wrath) is more popular )

Unlike Macrune commented above about Runepriests, I believe WarriorPriests benefit hugely from Guard (and Oathfriend too! Gotta love all that extra Toughness, Willpower and armour ). WP's must stand there up front, and WP's are like magnets for all sorts of damage from destruction players. The WP has a Armour reduction ~60%, should have pretty high Tougness, pretty high magic resistance (as WP's tend to have a pretty high Willpower) and if Emperors Ward in tactics slot (with all the incoming damage the ward is proccing practically all the time when off the internal cooldown of 3 seconds) then things are not too bad, *especially* if Guard (a third of all damage diverted to the guarding one) is available. And hopefully the RP's and AM's keep their HoT's running on the damage magnet that the WP is

When the WP is standing there beside the tanks (or as I prefer, right behind them so that I can keep on smiting over their heads) and mele-DPS, the WP can provide an AoE party heal every 3 seconds, a party wide bubble (on a longish cooldown, but it seems to be available when I need it), two party wide morales to heal and shield. Salvation WP is *not* a single target healer, he is the healer for the masses. WitchHunters, WhiteLions, BrightWizards ShadowWarriors and Engineers should kiss the ground where the Salvation WP is standing, because they'll never be healed as much otherwise (when I am on my RP I focus healing on the important classes, ie tanks and healers; the rest get heals if I happen to have surplus AP and surplus time to "waste" )   A Sorceress bombarding AoE nukes? No worries, the AoE heals will nullify the nukes. A couple witch elves trying to tear new holes in the behinds of RPs, AMs or BW's? No worries, the party wide shields will protect them easily.

A Salvation WP is *not* a tank however, that should always be remembered (but it is hard to remember I tell you, it is *hard*). The Salvation WP is a bastion. He needs tanks and melee DPS classes (oh, and mines, we loves them mines and them mines loves us, because they'll get plenty of opportunities to blow up on all the destros sucking in towards the WP) close to him. Because the nemesis of WP (in addition to the ever looming nemesis of "Hah, I am invincible, here I stand like a stonewall, you wussies need more people to hit me!!!") is *knockbacks* (the same is true for DoKs on Destruction side, so if you can punt them away from the front, please do so at every possible opportunity  ).

The WP absolutely *needs* to be in melee range. He needs to smite and smack people to generate Righteous Fury. No smiting = no healing or shielding or decursing. When knocked back to arses end your friends suddenly are not recieving the endless stream of AoE healing. As you scramble forwards you can't use Flee, because then you would arrive with no RF (AP generates pretty fast when you dont do anything, but the damn RF is *not* regenerating passively during combat). What is worse, when you get back to front your friends most likely have started to croak because the lack of constant healing stream is missing, and the RP or AM who has been there healing the spikes on single targets has to have lightnign fast reflexes to start AoE healing (and then there is nobody providing singletarget heals) but that will suck their AP reserves *fast*. Not to mention all the melee will now happily charge at the next healer they see.

When I meet in scenarios Destrcution tanks and Maguses who repeadetly punt me away, the scenario is going to shit (at least for me). When I can stand there doing my thing, it usually goes pretty well for my party too.


SPELLS I USE "ALWAYS" WHEN AVAILABLE

[spell]Touch of the Divine[/spell]

[spell]Smite[/spell]

[spell]Divine Light[/spell]


THE PRAYER I USE

[spell]Prayer of Absolution[/spell]


THE MORALE SKILLS I USE

1st morale slot [spell]Divine Favor[/spell]

2nd morale slot [spell]Rampaging Siphon[/spell]

3rd morale slot [spell]Divine Protection[/spell]


THE TACTICS I HAVE SLOTTED

[spell]Discipline[/spell]

[spell]Emperor's Ward[/spell]



THE SPELL I MOST LOOKING FORWARD TO GET

[spell]Martyr's Blessing[/spell]

[Jeremiah]

Witch Hunter

Main mechanic - melee strikes to build "accusations" with the sword followed by an "execution" with the pistol which scales with the number of accusations.  We have a nice area detaunt which needs no targeting and affects all those around us. In the confession line I have a number of other defences enabling me to 100% disrupt on casters and 100% parry all attacks.  I load the gun with a variety of bullets which can have different effects on the accusations. I also have "incognito" which isn't quite a stealth and is intended to help me close the distance there are also some specials that I can only use from incognito - but in no way is it like rogue stealth: I can usually be seen a long way off.

Strengths - 1v1 I can pretty much have a go at all classes so can make a good back-line priest defender.  In the thick of things with a few HoTs on me and specced confession I can have a surprisingly high survival rate (note to healers : don't write me off as a wasted heal when my health is below 25% a quick small heal can give me just enough time to build accusations and then BLAM dragon gun / parry / sanctified bullets and I'm back baby yeah!!!). I have two nice AoEs : (a) Dragon Gun - which does damage to my target and everyone near to him (about 15 ft I think), plus if I load it with the right bullets I nerf their healing by 50%.  It has a 10 sec cooldown and requires accusations to be built up (see weaknesses below) but I can see this as a very useful ability for when we burst into a keep with enemy tanks bunched together - damage them all and reduce the healing on them by 50% giving their healers something to think about. (b) reversal of fortune - a level 2 morale ability which damages all within 30 feet and disarms (as I understand it a disarm doesn't just affect melee classes it prevent others from using their abilities but I could be wrong).

Weaknesses - light armour means I die fast, my big bursts of damage and nastiness need accusations to work - these can only be built using melee attacks or an incognito special skill, this means I have to be in the thick of the action to really get going - I am often the primary target for enemy attacks and not the primary target friendly healing. I have a talent called flowing accusations which gives me a 50% chance to have 2 accusations back each time I fire (like an automatic having a 50% chance to reload another bullet in the chamber) - which means with a fair wind once I start hitting stuff I can spam a reasonable number of high damage shots known as absolution.  Which is why I love killing squigs that are sent to harass healers.

Roles -

Black Op in the rear : for a confession WH going into their back lines to solo kill a healer is not a serious plan for T4 (a) you will be seen and targeted long before you get there because incognito sucks as a stealth (I always seem to be seen when I do try but I never see WEs until they hit something but thats just a rant). (b) zealots / shaman have many ways to survive and kite so at T4 a quick kill is not guaranteed whereas my quick and horrid death is certain once I'm out in the open.  Going into the back lines to spread mayhem is at best a piece of psy-ops in RvR: knowing I might keeps their healers honest and at very best their tanks will collapse back in an attempt to join in the kill but we can't guarantee such stupidity at T4 (at least not from Destruction) and its only really effective if co-ordinated with a rush from our own zerg. (general observation here : don't be ashamed of the zerg guys, we may like quality over quantity but as Stalin observed, quantity has a special quality all of its own).  Note: when a lot of people roll a WH this is what they think they should be doing - when they die alone and far from home, horribly and continuously in the back lines they give up.

Wet Work with the tanks : combined with a tank and a WP I think there can be a lot of nice synergy to make a good mincer for their BO / Chosen attack.  My main boost stat is STR, the WP can buff that for me, a drip feed of health will keep me alive whilst I am being attacked (and of the three of us a sensible zerg would pick me to attack) but I can parry / disarm their attacks and damage the crap out them.  If the tank / or WP is being attacked I can step up my positional attacks (from behind they ignore armour) ... well you get the idea. I've experimented on this with Peidriedrich in scenarios where I run with a WH and its quite effective.

Nanny for the Healers : fine with this if assigned the job - any WE will die from a healed WH.

All the above is of course dependent on me actually playing it right - but that comes with practise.

[Warcold]

What do I do in RvR?
Pick a target and DoT the bastard: [spell]Law Of Conductivity[/spell][spell]Radiant Gaze[/spell][spell]Transfer Force[/spell][spell]Scatter The Winds[/spell]
By this time healers will notice the target is getting damage. Luckily the last spell also makes healing 50% less effective, so now its time to do some more damage: [spell]Searing Touch[/spell]. This lot will quite hurt most targets, but I do rely on other ppl to do some extra damage to kill the guy. Targeting frontline destros help in this.
Just got this: [spell]Storm Of Cronos[/spell], but havent been close enough yet in RvR. Could be very usefull, cause almost all my spells use spirit dam.
Of course there is this nice spell: [spell]Rain Lord[/spell] and soon I will get [spell]Law Of Age[/spell] which both are pretty cool debuffs.

THE MORALE SKILLS I USE

1st morale slot   [spell]Divine Favor[/spell]


2nd morale slot   [spell]Rampaging Siphon[/spell]


3rd morale slot   [spell]Divine Protection[/spell]

I have offensive and healing specs in my tactics.

Healing:
[spell]Restorative Burst[/spell]
[spell]Discipline[/spell]
[spell]Master of Tranquility[/spell]

DPS-ish
[spell]Divine Fury[/spell]
[spell]Expanded Control[/spell]
[spell]Dispel Magic[/spell]

[Gunnarr]

Spells I do not use much in RvR:

DPS:
[spell]Rune of Striking[/spell]
[spell]Rune of Fire[/spell]
[spell]Rune of Might[/spell]
[spell]Rune of Cleaving[/spell]

Healing:
[spell]Grungni's Gift[/spell] (heals for too little)
[spell]Rune of Cleansing[/spell] (too hard to see debuffs, anyone know a good mod?)

On a sidenote, Runepriests have 3 different buffs they can give to everyone:
[spell]Oath Rune Of Power[/spell]
[spell]Oath Rune of Warding[/spell]
[spell]Oath Rune of Iron[/spell]
At the moment, I usually give everyone Oath Rune of Warding, UNLESS there's a AM in the group (they have an equivalent buff, in which case I switch to Oath Rune of Power for melee/magic-dps classes and tanks, and Oath Rune of Iron for all healer classes, SWs and Engineers. Amirite?

[Torgal]

(too hard to see debuffs, anyone know a good mod?)

I use a combination of Squared (which you may well already use) and zBuffBars. Squared shows very clearly when people have dispellable debuffs, and zBuffBarrs is good at showing the [buffs on self/target | debuffs on self/target]. Personally I show buffs on target and debuffs on self (even with high res I don't have room for ALL the bars on my UI), so that I can dispel important debuffs on myself when I need to (WE debuffs mainly) and time my HoTs on my target (which can obv. include myself when I am targetted). If I see someone has a dispellable debuff, and I have a spare 1.5 seconds I'll dispel it. I quite often dispel when the target is subject to high dps, because if there's a chance I can remove a healing debuff then it's worth delaying the next heal by GCD.

The only other thing to add is that the only damage spell I ever use is rune of cleaving.

[Kaffedags]

Bright wizard strength is of course damage. Also some crowd control - an area effect root (but most classes can break this), a single-target morale knock-back, and in the Immolation (damage over time) tree a 40% snare/channeled damage which works great on people trying to retreat.

Don't forget Stop, Drop, And Roll, a 3 second knowdown high in Immolation, and Morale 2 Ruin And Destruction, a 5 second AOE stun. Bright Wizards do tons of damage, but also have amazing utility - especially in Immolation-tree. At T4 I often find myself playing as a mage-buster, keeping healers and casters down at range while the MDPS-classes chase down and kill them. Use any knockback to send someone flying towards a Bright Wizard, we'll keep him down and make him dead. Mostly.

Weakness - doing damage to themselves through explosions at high combustion.

 

This. As if combustion wasn't enough, we also have a spell to regain action points by damaging ourselves, and in the Incineration-tree a spell that increases the damage of everything we cast, but damaging ourselves in the process. Combined with weak armour we really are glass-cannons, and absolutely need that healer-support to keep functioning.

Put rain of fire on the stairs when defending a keep.

Bright Wizard AOE only comes close to the Engineers when we're specced into the Conflaguration-tree, but then it's pretty awesome. Especially Rain of Fire and Detonate (AOE dot really come into their own when you can get the enemy to bunch up. It's good in sieges, but also when you can work with an Engineer casting Electromagnet.

Finally, do I think bright wizards are overpowered?  Yes, expecting either damage or utility to be toned down.  Lot of fun in any case.

I agree. It's a bit cheap, but dot-bombing an enemy by moving in and out of his range, running away and seeing his health tick down is a fun playstyle if you want to be an annoying dick.