Hands of Justice
What we have played => EVE Online => Topic started by: Mangala on December 22, 2008, 11:08:10 PM
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So we have a direction it would seem.
Thanks to Rub, we have RIG BPO's & an Orca BPO. Which with some work will give us the ability to manufacture these items for sale in various regional markets. Now how will we get there?
This is how I see the memberbase getting us there:
Mission Runners: We need Salvage, you need isk. We need to find a nice balance of taking your salvage at a price that doesnt gouge your wallets too much; We can also use all the loot you feel like donating to the hangar, this can be reprocessed into much needed minerals, some of which are rare in High Security space; We will provide your ammunition - whether you then convert this to Faction via the LP store is your choice - via the manufacturers
Miners: Everything you can mine, we would like that. Again we all need (after the Xmas season is over) to sit down and settle on a remuneration program that does all of us some benefit - the corp and the memberbase; We may even need people capable of mining ice (This takes working from home or long periods of study or illness given how boring it is!) to supply fuel for the POS, saving our costs. However this latter request relies on other things we will work on going forward.
Explorers: Find us mining sites with rare ore in them; Work towards being damn good at exploration, will give us an edge when T3 hits and we need to begin finding wormholes.
Builders: Skill up towards rig and/or ship construction; Look into RnD for datacores you may need for any required invention as well as haranguing corpies to do the same (its a nice passive income stream); Settle on quota's of required minerals; Agree what we need to build and what we do not; Purchase (either alone or via the corp) required bpc's/bpo's etc; Develop an in-house ship program for members to get cheaper vessels (This will be an excellent foundation for similar after T3 hits) in addition to selling a percentage in selected regions;
Research Alts: Not everyone needs one, I'll have one and Saf has stated his intention to create one too, I'd think 3 at most will be enough to ensure any BPO's we get are researched well, copied to a good degree and generally keep the Research Alt Corp ticking over;
Wannabe PVPers: lets get some learning in (I need new kills for my sig!), we'll need some scanning skills too; we need to enhance our cooperative abilities too; get each other some small time FC practice and of course go on as many Agony courses as come available that we can do :)
All these actions combined will hopefully get us moving towards the corp becoming proftable and through that us all making a nice income in game, enjoying our playtime and maybe even being able to go out and shoot other players one day, with a good industrial backbone to support us;
Yes it will take work, alot of it on all our parts - starting a Capital program is no easy task - but I feel it will pay off in the long term (EVE is all about the long term).
Do feel free to rip this post apart, offer alternate views, hell even offer to take on certain roles as detailed above or give me figures for Mineral Purchase program as you see them, Market info for regions where you think we can make money on ships/rigs etc
This is OUR corp!
Anyways, I'll be on mainly to switch skills over the next few days, so I'll see you all properly after the xmas period - unless you crop up in left 4 dead when I find some time to play that too!
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Sounds like a well thought out plan and looks good to me.
Many of the BP's we have and should be getting provide the tools that players can use and profit from - salvage to make rigs (for corp use or/and market), mins for productions (ships, modules, ammo, mining crystals, probes, etc). The Probe BP's are also on my shopping list and exploration offers some exciting opportunities (and can be tough to do).
Early on having a supply of things for the corp - will mean you don't have to worry about buying the major items - they'll be there for people to use.
Likewise - the larger items (freighters, command ships, carriers) will be available to corp members also.
I'm really excited about it.
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Dont worry about Probe BP's for now, COnstantine grabbed 90 100 run BPC's covering all of them :)
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In addition to the roles I listed in my OP, we need people who are willing to do such esoteric things as pay the miners, salvagers etc - This person(s) would have access to the Corp Wallet (Probably use Division 2 as the "Internal Payments" section) and would need to purchase goods from members based on the prices I am looking at currently.
I could do this, but I'm already a walking head ache from all the other numbers!
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Regarding 0.0 access.
The United Freemen Alliance are in Geminate - a part of space I know and they control 2 stations (from my quick overview) there.
They're looking for corps to join the alliance.
The alliance blurb reads:
Anti-Pirate, Free Commerce alliance....
Currently recruiting corporations with:
- 0.0 as goal
- more than 5 man very active PvP
- more than 5 man very active industrialists
I don't know their relationships with the other alliances but I think they're more Goon than BoB from a quick search.
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There's no rush, certainly, and the guys will need to grow into their skins ... therefore we should investigate them. I don't know geminate as space goes - how trusec is it?
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ok a few questions
Explorers finding Gravimetric sites, how will the corp pay for this? percentage (10% finders fee) cut of ore values? or fixed?
For the sale of ores/salvage/datacores to corp what do you think of a flat 75% JIta price? Paid out every Thursday by myself (from corp wallet ofc ;P )to whomsoever contracts the stuff (if so i can do the 3 days training to Charon after my Manufacturing skills finish)
as to the in corp ship programme id say sell at build cost, with the proviso that customer orders take pref, but if its yours and its in the cooker customer has to wait. We should get some BPs of the most used mission ships for this purpose.
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Didnt think of a finders fee for explorers, thats a valid point. 10% of Minerals mined and refined would be a good start I think as you suggest?
As for Ore/Salvage etc, I have a post in production now on that very topic.
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In addition to the roles I listed in my OP, we need people who are willing to do such esoteric things as pay the miners, salvagers etc - This person(s) would have access to the Corp Wallet (Probably use Division 2 as the "Internal Payments" section) and would need to purchase goods from members based on the prices I am looking at currently.
I could do this, but I'm already a walking head ache from all the other numbers!
I could smash together a XLsheet and take care of this.
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In addition to the roles I listed in my OP, we need people who are willing to do such esoteric things as pay the miners, salvagers etc - This person(s) would have access to the Corp Wallet (Probably use Division 2 as the "Internal Payments" section) and would need to purchase goods from members based on the prices I am looking at currently.
I could do this, but I'm already a walking head ache from all the other numbers!
I could smash together a XLsheet and take care of this.
See attached.
I'll add the Datacore & Salvage sections later, but this is the daddy for now.
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There's no rush, certainly, and the guys will need to grow into their skins ... therefore we should investigate them. I don't know geminate as space goes - how trusec is it?
Geminate has the Guristas Faction NPCs.
TDE4 & K25 (the station systems are -0.58). TDE4 is a refinery station.
Surrounding systems vary between -0.96 & -0.4. There is an NPC station north at FDZ4-A.
North east of Geminate are 3 drone regions which currently have no sov but are handy from a mineral perspective.
The main routes in from:
- The Forge is via Oijanen & BWF-ZZ
- Great Wildlands is via K-IYNW & Atioth
- Metropois via Eurgrana & AD-5B8
The closest Cap ship jump point is Eurgrana and is possible with the lowest skills if I remember correctly.
Out of game map link: http://grismar.net/eve/navigator/index.php?form_id=nav_form&query=*30000001+!*30002502
And also page 30, G7 here: http://www.eve-maps.com/
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Sounds very promising; perhaps it's worth finding out a little more about them ...
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They look decent and the space itself isn't bad.
The pluses:
- They are recriuting now and we're the right size with the right combination of players (industrial/pvp)
- They have 2 stations - which makes the space accessible to us
- It'll give the player base decent access to PvP
- It'll give the industrials access to all ore types
- I'm familiar with the space - so it'll help reduce the learning curve
- It's fairly close for us and it's on the opposite side of the map from Bob
- We have and own a carrier cap ship & are dread capable (although 25 days ish away from Siege and Citadels) - which makes moving ships/eq much easier - and us more attractive to them
- There is a null sec NPC station nearby
- Current control of BWF (the gateway system) is in alliance hands - which makes access very simple
- Exploration in 0.0!
*Hands Batton over to Beosvir*
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I personally would prefer to wait a short while until our guys have had time to finish off their early skill plans and our hisec infrastructure is solid and in place. Dont want all our eggs in the one basket, which an immediate move could result in should it all go tits up out there :)
Definelty make some contacts with them, let them know we are interested but due to majority of the members being new (unless the majority wants to move right away of course) and needing to find their feet (And in some cases reskill a little into more combat focused skills for self protection, as living in 0.0 isnt all sweetness and light now is it :D) we'd need some time before committing fully. (I'd love to be able to commit our guys to space defence rather than docking up when reds come through).
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/United_Freemen_Alliance
The above link is kinda cool too - shows a full breakdown of member numbers, and so on.
http://www.unitedfreemen.net/
Their website is here. Killboard shows a reasonable efficiency rate, with little padding (Kills of macro's and the like). Forum seems quiet, 2.5k posts in its life span - yes not a good judge, but as we all know, I like out of game activity, helps foster a stronger community as much as the ingame stuff can. I did intend to make an initial contact via their forum as they say on their site, but its too quiet!
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Meh, if they're not regularly in corp wars, being part of the alliance won't hurt us badly. But I understand not wanting to rush into anything - but being the 'cap builder' in an industrial alliance is a good place to be, especially with a healthy mining corp to provide minerals underneath it. Speaking of which, in about a month or so, Myenne will be hulk capable - who's going to get the first Rorqual?
Alternatively, find out what it'd cost to be set to blue, being able to move in and out of their space and access 0.0 ore is probably pretty good, even if we feel that nullsec politics isn't where you guys want to be initially.
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They're pro Minmatar alliance as well - which means that there'll be a bunch of cloak wearers in there too.
That said, seems like a decent bunch focusing on mining and anti-piracy. They're not trying to hold too much space either, so if we are aggressive with a couple of POSes to help gain sovereignty in their station system - get a cynojammer up, and a cyno beacon, and then get a couple of large moon POSes --- anyone fancy doing a bit of moon scanning for possibles -- then there's a killing to be made.
Just thinking that the guys are all capable and smart, and if getting a couple of moon-miners and a low-trusec ratting/mining POS up gets us a skip-and-jump ahead, so much the better ...
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With the alt corp - I don't think we'll be putting all our eggs into one basket and it does give us a layer of protection should setting up a POS in 0.0 be a direction we'd like to go.
Logistically - A good time to setup is while the zone is fairly quiet - doing it during activity is risky and during a siege can be tough.
I also have a couple of POS modules available in 0.0 - so setting one up can be done fairly quicky.
It's really more if this is something that is or isn't a good idea.
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I vote 'Let's have a vote' :-)
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Don't know if it's my place to say much considering I'm still on trial (and undecided if I can afford to continue but we will see).
Anyway.
Any direction should be as wide as possible, if we can get a "safe" 0.0 area to be in I think that would be of great importance in the long run. (With safe I mean not close to the frontlines in the warfare going on and that we are "blue" in the holders eyes).
Other than that I think the most important thing is to get the corp up and running fully. Can the manufacturers make what they need? That is sort of the base in a corp imo :)
Other things would be to try to practice and get escorts for ourselfs by ourselfs in low-sec space for miners and such.
Other than that I don't know much hehe.
No limits with a safety belt is always best ;)
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So, unless there's a late swing in Miami Dade Florida :D, looks like the vote is that we work towards moving to 0.0 in 4-8 weeks.
What are the things we need to do to prepare for this? 6 weeks (in between 4 and 8) is a lot of preparation time; so let's use it wisely.
Here are some suggestions for [Corp] and [Individuals]
[Individuals]
- Work out how you're going to make money in 0.0
* Mining / Ratting in decent trusec make about 30M/hour
* Corp mining makes more but that's really an 'op' for the corp to get minerals to build stuff
* moon mining even more but is difficult - and requires moon scanning
- Build a wallet to afford 4-5 of your favourite fully fitted ship types ( Initially stick to T1 insurable ships with T2 modules - this logically works out much cheaper than T2 ships with T2 modules :-) )
- Learn to fly a small fast ship (interceptor)
- Learn Propulsion Jamming I (so you can fit a point)
- If you are close to Electronics V (or have it already you good Caldari Achura Monk Military Pilots you :-) :-) ) then train 'Cynosural Field Theory I' so you can help rubino move about
- If you are Caldari and don't have a point in 'Battlecruisers' get a couple of points in battlecruisers; the drake is a fine 0.0 ratting ship.
- Get a jump clone setup
- If you're interested in the logistics and industry side of the corporation, train 'Anchoring' to IV; Ideally V because then you can train Starbase Defence.
[Corp]
- What type of alliance do we want to join?
* Territorial Military
- Usually requires the corp to have 20-30 active PVP players.
- examples: GoonFleet; Morsus Mihi; etc.
* Territorial Industrial
- Usually requires ???
- examples: ???
* Non-territorial military (pirate)
- Usually requires the corp to have 20-30 active PVP players.
- examples: Pandemic Legion; etc ; etc.
* Non-territorial military
- Usually requires ???
- examples: ???
- What's our USP - merchant/industrial?
* We should offer to come with soverignty claiming deathstar POSes and help establish a jump-bridge network (if one isn't there already).
* We should be able to say 'hey, we build XXX' - knowing that ally corporations will build '! XXX' :-)
- Scope out the space we're potentially moving to; we're looking for systems with:
* Moons with materials we want
* High numbers of belts (ideally containing Arkonor/Bistot ... Crokite)
* Good Trusec rating (< -0.3)
- How many hops to empire for a jump freighter / carrier - let's get cyno alts into those losec systems on the borderlands - ideally to find a nice quiet 1 station system
- Buffer the corp wallet to be able to afford the towers etc.
Any more for any more?
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0.0 and alliances is really something I know too little about atm.
But if we want to move industry into lowsec any 'non-territorial' sounds the way we should NOT go.
Our corp is just too small to field more than 5 or so PvP pilots atm, so that narrows the possibilities i guess. To either industrial alliances or PvP-alliances that accept smaller corps.
What about this corp Beo mentioned in this other thread?
A pure industrial alliance is not something that really appeals to me, but the same goes for a pure PvP-alliance. But dont know if alliances are 100% this or that.
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0.0 and alliances is really something I know too little about atm.
But if we want to move industry into lowsec any 'non-territorial' sounds the way we should NOT go.
Our corp is just too small to field more than 5 or so PvP pilots atm, so that narrows the possibilities i guess. To either industrial alliances or PvP-alliances that accept smaller corps.
What about this corp Beo mentioned in this other thread?
A pure industrial alliance is not something that really appeals to me, but the same goes for a pure PvP-alliance. But dont know if alliances are 100% this or that.
Most alliances need manufacturing/industry as well I would suspect. Replacing all thoose battleships and what not is expensive :)
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A pure industrial alliance is not something that really appeals to me, but the same goes for a pure PvP-alliance. But dont know if alliances are 100% this or that.
You're absolutely right, and in my estimation, it's better to be an industrial corp in a PVP alliance, than a PVP corp in an industrial alliance.
Note that things aren't 100%; but logistics is the thing that does for alliances, almost always.
Most alliances need manufacturing/industry as well I would suspect. Replacing all thoose battleships and what not is expensive :)
Having an effective industrial and logistics backbone is as critically important to the alliance as having a decent intelligence/black ops group.
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Null sec (0.0) is better than low-sec in many ways.
PvP is more directed and less random - and it's generally safer for all types of ops.
The general combat arena is more directed and has better/defined objectives.
In terms of jumping stuff in/out - Red has lvl 5 jump skills - giving around 14ly range with the Chimera - and it should be around 12ly for the Rhea (Jump Freighter) & Rorqual (Cap Industrial).
Edit: Regarding the Geminate 0.0 alliance - I have made contact with a corp that runs the K25 station. One of my chars was in the station when I reactivated the account - so it was prudent to join their corp.
They're a friendly bunch, helpful and have been very accomodating.
I have some cyno books for the corp hanger - so if as suggested if you have electronics V - it would be helpful to take 30 mins to train the skill. We'll do a couple of "dry" runs beforehand and I'll provide you with cyno eq'd frigs/cruisers. I also have 20 frigs/cruisers at a few stations (from when I used to provide ships in 0.0 for my corp).
At TDE I have POS EQ - 8-10 POS guns/missile batteries, a corp hanger, a lab and some hardeners. So setting up a 0.0 POS is mostly about the fuel/tower.
So at some point (when we know where we're going) I'll arrange for them to be moved.
Update:
With the voting now complete - most people wanted 4-8 weeks before moving to 0.0 - which gives us a target of 28th Jan - 28th Feb when planning logistics.
Most 0.0 alliances will want you to move in within a week or so from joining.
When thinking/planning skills - it's generally an idea to plan tanking skills before ships/guns as tanking will generally apply to all ships and you'll have a good foundation later for anything you'll fly.
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I am at electronics 4, but if you are ppl short I will train it to 5.
But I guess that Constantine has elec 5. Hope he drains the alcohol from his system any time soon and will log in again. :D
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The more the better. I have alts both in the corp and out that I can log if needed. But it is pretty to see the wormholes open :)
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When in 0.0 - the corp will always have spare frigs/cruisers (and hopefully BC's) as well as fittings available to the corp at the POS/station.
BS's will be harder due to the mineral requirements.
With fittings the best approach is to knock up fitting packs and put them up as long term contract to the corp.
Then when you need a ship - you can grab the fittings in one go and return to combat in a few minutes.
Generally in 0.0 there is more need for tacklers (and therefore smaller ships) than for dmg (there's usually plenty who can provide that).
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When in 0.0 - the corp will always have spare frigs/cruisers (and hopefully BC's) as well as fittings available to the corp at the POS/station.
BS's will be harder due to the mineral requirements.
The way this is often run is:
"take corp T1 ship, insure it with your money. When it's destroyed, post your killmail and you're refunded the cost of insurance" then
"take corp T1 ship, insure it with your money. When it's destroyed, post your killmail and you're refunded the cost of insurance" then
...
This often depends on you flying what's called a 'reimbursement fit' which is where the below comes in:
With fittings the best approach is to knock up fitting packs and put them up as long term contract to the corp.
Then when you need a ship - you can grab the fittings in one go and return to combat in a few minutes.
Generally in 0.0 there is more need for tacklers (and therefore smaller ships) than for dmg (there's usually plenty who can provide that).
When we get there, we can define the reimbursement fits and the skills required to pilot them.
A lot of this depends on how we take the corp in terms of operating model; there are a few ways of doing this:
1. Capitalist
2. Communist
3. Communalist
1. Capitalist - the corp runs an internal store selling ships at cost price to members. The corp has a set tax rate, but anything else is down to individuals and their wallets.
2. Communist - individuals have 0 wallets. Crazy concept, but the corp pays for everything, Everything is done out of Corporate Hangar Arrays and the corporate wallet. Large purchases are made by directors (i.e. nobody buys a chimera just 'cos they feel like it) - but everyone contributes and receives the reward of their contribution. 100% tax.
3. Communalist - individuals have wallets, tax rate is high-ish (40%+), corp gives away to members a bunch of stuff (T1 ships, modules, ammo, Liquid Nitrogen, Oxygen etc), all 'corp' expenses are picked up by the corp, T2 ships are often built and then sold internally at subsidy.
I prefer communalist, but I've played in all sorts of hybrids.
But in terms of general direction, I think we should focus on industrialist/logistics with a PVP presence. Being the guys who conquer systems and build capital ships is a great thing ... :)
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I prefer communalist, but I've played in all sorts of hybrids.
But in terms of general direction, I think we should focus on industrialist/logistics with a PVP presence. Being the guys who conquer systems and build capital ships is a great thing ... :)
I agree 100% - it helps minimise the "fear" factor of 0.0 combat and encourages a go-get-em attitude.
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UFA - if that is still the interested party has gained another couple of systems from TCF (From what I read on UFA's recruitment threads they are renters of TCF's) who are currently in the process of moving North to Deklien as well as helping the Swarm fight -A- and BoB in the south. Should be a good group to at least start our 0.0 adventure with, although having KIA as neighbours and possible allies is worrying as its only a matter of time before Eddz falls out with his neighbours.
But it would be a good fight!
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Is there any general map available that shows the where abouts of different corps in 0.0? Sort of hard to follow at times the discussions (especially on the EVE official forums) regarding different corps, when you have no clue where they usually roam :)
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This shows ALliances, which when I talk about UFA & TCF is what i mean. Corps rarely hold space on their own, its always as part of an alliance.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png
We are interested in Geminate, which is to the east of The Forge region on the map.
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J'aime le TCF :-)
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UFA wasn't holding much space haha :)
Looks like what? 3-4 systems? or am I reading the map wrong?
Of course for a start that is enough to keep a thight hold on :)
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That's not a bad place to start, the alternative is you take too much space, then can't defend it ...
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UFA is part of KIA - and with good relationships with TCF give us quite some scope to the east and north.
J7HZ is north east of Geminate and is part of 3 regions of drone space (which iirc can't be claimed) - at some point it would be worth having a POS in this region as part of a jump network which would allow harvesting of drone NPC's for minerals.
The only issue is that I don't know the relationship with Goon - and we have members with Goon alts...
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TCF are +ve
KIA are broadly +ve, but EDDZ can be random.
Also, if we ever reset standings and actively end up in conflict, we'll discuss 'the right thing' but probably me taking a break from game for a bit is correct.
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+ve?
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+ve?
Positive, ie friendly.
Eddz and random = massive understatement :D
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Goons are + to TCF (Superb +10)
Goons are + to KIA (Good +5)
Goons are = to UFA (Neutral)
http://standings.goonfleet.com/
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Goons are + to TCF (Superb +10)
Goons are + to KIA (Good +5)
Goons are = to UFA (Neutral)
http://standings.goonfleet.com/
Would suspect that the neutral has mostly to do with the small size of ufa?
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Right, and the fact that they're not really in conflicting space, so unlikely to bump into each other.
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Mate of mine seems to be still playing EvE (thought he'd quit). He is in an alliance that is just starting and planning to pull into 0.0 in a while. Not really what we are looking for i reccon, but I'll have a chat with him tonight nonetheless.
His corp is Legacy Syndicate, alliance is www.redflagsovereignty.com (http://www.redflagsovereignty.com)
[edit]hmm, browsed their forum and the alliance doesnt seem very mature, in more senses of the word, but lets see what my mate has to say[/edit]
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His corp is Legacy Syndicate, alliance is www.redflagsovereignty.com (http://www.redflagsovereignty.com)
[edit]hmm, browsed their forum and the alliance doesnt seem very mature, in more senses of the word, but lets see what my mate has to say[/edit]
Be very careful with new alliances. They tend to be full of egos and pratts. That said, if he's a good mate and a decent fit, poach him for ma'adim.
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Ideally an alliance should already be in 0.0 with systems that contain stations.
Taking hostile space is very do-able but the target system/region should contain a conquerable station as POS refining is pretty inefficient.
While I'm up for taking hostile space it poses a number of issues that need to be considered. Bearing these in mind - if you think the leaders of the alliance are capable of such.
Additionally the MADDI should have an equal footing in the alliance and be part of all strategy and direction. Without this - taking hostile space means you end up being just fodder - both during the siege and after when it comes to offices, refining tax, etc.
- You're going to be taking space away from somebody and somebody with friends (meta alliances essentially boil down to one of the 2 main factions in eve - Bob & Goon) - if you don't have cap ship support you're asking for trouble.
- Taking hostile space isn't trivial - it's not hard but it's not easy. It takes numbers - and the more of the 23 hour clock you cover the better. Additionally your cap ship pilots need to be on at the same time for when sieges happen.
It takes a lot of ISK to take space from somebody. You've fuel, ammo, replacements, supplies, POS's (their fittings and fuel) needed - a fighting fund of at least 10b - probably several times this is needed.
If memory serves me right from my last experience of taking a region - you're looking at 30-40b isk. Vac can probably provide a more current figure on this.
Essentially the process of taking populated 0.0 space involves..
1) Intel:
Have good friends that support your action (not just a NAP) which can and will provide support (Capital support)
Pick optimal systems within that fit your relationships with friendly alliances
Scout out any moons that don't have POS's up, determining POS's and their defences, gathering intel on pilots in the constellation and travel patterns
Make strategic BMs for the systems in the region (Station, Moons, Belts, sniper points, gates, safe-spots)
Do the math to determine supplies, POS's & ISK needed to take sov and the campaign
2) Prep:
Getting your alliance corps into position at the entry points to the region
Buying Stontium, jump fuel & ammo for the dreads & cynos
Distributing the BM's and getting cyno alts into position
Ensuring you have replacement ships in the JF's, carriers, etc - you're gonna need spare, well equipped ships on hand for people at 0 cost
Buying POS's, POS modules, stront (a lot) and fuel which will be put into the system/region
Ensuring you have enough bubbles, etc to lock down the system
3) Siege:
Numbers are the game - you need to ensure you have enough pilots in system/region around the clock to lock down traffic
a) You have at least 1 empty moon in system - drop the POS & POS fittings to create a safe location in system for your forces. The more empty moons the better. Use as much Stront as possible to give you a window of defence
b) If you don't have an empty moon - then you'll need to take out one of their POS's by bringing in Dreads and sieging the POS (you can do it with BS if the POS is a poor setup and you don't mind it taking a loooooong time). As soon as the POS is down - do (a)
The math from (1) kicks in - you'll need to out match sov from their POS's with yours and the cycle works over the number of DT's.
Once you have sov and there's a station in system (ideal) the real fun kicks in with a station siege. You'll again need to have the system locked down and dreads on hand to break down the station shields to claim it.
4) Defence:
You'll need to maintain high numbers in the system/region for several weeks to ensure there's no bounce-back.
Additionally you'll need to push out and ensure you control the gates between empire space -> 0.0 (and entry points into the region) as much as possible - if not 23/7 - so having high active numbers in the alliance matters a lot.
Timeframes:
In terms of the time it takes from start to end - you're looking at somewhere in the region of 2-8 weeks. Agains Vac can probably provide more current information on this. I think we when took Geminate it took 6 weeks or so from the start until we felt established in our new home.
Deploying your own station:
While putting up a station isn't hard or particularly expensive (a few billion ISK) - the risk is. Without support (from other alliances) you could be buying the other side a nice shiney toy.
Profit (risk/reward):
The ways to make profit from 0.0 have been discussed in other threads but when you've finally finished and have a shiney new station to live in (even better if MADDI is the corp controlling it) - now you can start making an income. Up until now everything has been an expense. A rough guess is that you'll start making a profit after about the same time it took to take the space - so if it took 6 weeks to take the system(s) - about 6 weeks after living there you'll break even.
MADDI Capabilities:
From a siege perspective - what we can offer as a corp to the alliance (thinking off the top of my head so "update" me if I'm wrong :P ):
Sub BS Ships, modules & ammo (we won't be able to charge for these in a siege and while we can make BS's our mining side doesn't bring in enough mins to make it a production line affair)
Transportation between empire and 0.0 (ships, fuel, supplies, POS's, etc)
Corp POS's, POS modules, POS Fuel (2 or 3 - maybe more)
1 or 2 Carrier pilots (I think Beo might have one that's about ready)
1 or 2 Dread Pilots (same as the above)
3 or 4 Orca Pilots (spare ships, transportation, in-space fitting and fleet boosting)
5+ BS able pilots (BS, HAC, HI, dictor type)
5+ PvP Pilots (BC or smaller)
1 or 2b ISK
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Have to say that trying to "take" populated space isn't something I think we would be able to do initially.
The risk of getting involved in a war with bob or goon as the first thing you do in 0.0 must be rather futile. Either of those alliances will steamroll any fledgling alliance without breaking a sweat (at least I think so...) and even if explosions are pretty I don't think it is worth it for the no reward which could come from it.
A established smaller alliance is more likely to be a better start and when the new areas open up (hopefully possible to claim) it will be possible to expand there and make that alliance into something more than what it is currently.
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This is where relationships come into play - if one of them is supporting you - then you minimise the risk.
I don't think Bob & Goon bang heads directly too much nowadays - they do it mostly via their alliances with the other alliances :)
FYI: Only alliances can claim SOV of 0.0 space.
The alliance War is suggesting might be thinking of expanding into the 0.0 space that will be opened as part of the Marth 10th expansion. The only issue is that currently it's a big unknown - I'm not even sure you'll be able to gain sov in that space (as is currently the case in some of the Drone regions). Anybody have any intel?
Edit:
Finding wormholes will require a new scanner and modules (possibly also probes)
New skills required
Wormholes will also be opened up via missions
The new zones will be part of new reactions coming in the expansion for T3 - which suggests moon mining.
Possibly the introduction of new racial NPC's based on existing races in eve - some people are suggesting Jovian.
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I don't think Bob & Goon bang heads directly too much nowadays - they do it mostly via their alliances with the other alliances :)
Don't go BoB. Since you're in the North - Ally with someone in the Northern Coalition (Morsus Mihi etc). BoB call their allies 'pets'. Say no more.
But I would say that, I'm a Goon. That said, TCF are pretty cool, and have a huge amount of space up there.
FYI: Only alliances can claim SOV of 0.0 space.
Regarding the cost; I would say your fighting fund needs to be about 10bn per system you're looking to take.
(Think tower costs, strontium, replacement capships etc etc).
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I'll read your extensive post(s) later, but I ran into this concerning UFA, looks like they are going to hit rough times:
IDLE EMPIRE Repels UFA Starbase Attack
reported by: ISD Amaari Yolkia | 2009.01.15 23:55:06
W-3BSU - An assault on IDLE EMPIRE installations ended in three capital losses for the United Freemen Alliance earlier this week. The aim of the UFA operation had been part of a wider strategy to maintain control over the region of Geminate, along with their allies KIA Alliance.
A small number of systems in the region have been under IDLE sovereignty for 2 weeks; it was only early this week that their presence has drawn UFA's attention. Rowlandos, head of IDLE, denies UFA or KIA had any right over the systems: "it was unclaimed, to claim space you [have to] put [a] sovereignty claim on it."
The successful defence of their starbase was the result of a joint operation with their allies, Gay4Life and Eternal Rapture. Rowlandos went on to comment that they were given no warning before the attack, and that they were not the aggressors: "they started it, they shot first."
Gendril, XO of the United Freemen Alliance, now believes that the situation will continue to worsen as allies of IDLE become involved: "It seems some of their friends have declared war on us, so it seems what could have been a minor issue will escalate."
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Aye - they're looking to expand into the rest of Geminate and secure the region.
As you grow you need to expand - there are only finite resources. To expand means taking the space they own using force. Sometimes a plan works (with good intel & management more often than not) - sometimes it doesn't.
Conflict (pvp) is built into eve from the foundations - the only safe occupations are scamming and stealing salvage :)
Thanks for the update on the costs vac - so to take over new space would be 10b split between the corps in the alliance.
Assuming a small number of corps (you don't want too many as you'll be starting small and actually using the space by ratting/mining you'll have conflict) - say 4 or 5 - then you're looking at 2 - 2.5b per corp/system.
When you own a region then you can start looking to bring in more corps into the alliance.
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I'll read your extensive post(s) later, but I ran into this concerning UFA, looks like they are going to hit rough times:
Don't believe everything you read ...
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This is where relationships come into play - if one of them is supporting you - then you minimise the risk.
I don't think Bob & Goon bang heads directly too much nowadays - they do it mostly via their alliances with the other alliances :)
FYI: Only alliances can claim SOV of 0.0 space.
The alliance War is suggesting might be thinking of expanding into the 0.0 space that will be opened as part of the Marth 10th expansion. The only issue is that currently it's a big unknown - I'm not even sure you'll be able to gain sov in that space (as is currently the case in some of the Drone regions). Anybody have any intel?
I know alliances are the only ones that can claim space :)
What I mean with "we" is the alliance we end up in.
As for bob and goons not going at it themselves mean they support their allies against aggression right?
So attacking one of their allies (which ever it might be and personally I don't fancy being anyones pet haha) will bring you into conflict with them and for a new alliance trying to dislodge that kind of firepower must be nigh on impossible.
That UFA is in conflict doesn't mean to much imo, it might acctually mean we would have a better chance of getting into the alliance since they will need pilots and resources and even if we are quite few I suspect every bit counts. If nothing else we do bring a reasonably solid industrial base which is from what I understand cap capable?
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The first Orca is on the market, the second is waiting for some BPO's to be copied but it's about ready to cook.
The good thing about the Orca is that the parts are the same to make the other cap ships. While we don't have all the BPO's yet - we're getting there and the sales will help generate the income to buy them.
We have a solid group of guys - and from the polls on the fourms - most want to PvP in some way.
While we are small - we are versitile and from the info they have posted - we meet their requirements for joining up both in terms of combat and industry (they realise they need both).
The other alliance mentioned is also a possibility - the main reason I posted about what it means to claim hostile space (and the post got a little longer than I anticipated - sorry) wasn't to put a damper on it - but just to share the experiences of earlier times. The info and lessons I learned may be a little old - so I maybe off - I'm happy to stand corrected. Vac has far more recent experience of Eve "trench" warfare. I'd just rather we go in with our eyes open and understanding to buffer the experience we lack.
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The first Orca is on the market, the second is waiting for some BPO's to be copied but it's about ready to cook.
The good thing about the Orca is that the parts are the same to make the other cap ships. While we don't have all the BPO's yet - we're getting there and the sales will help generate the income to buy them.
We have a solid group of guys - and from the polls on the fourms - most want to PvP in some way.
While we are small - we are versitile and from the info they have posted - we meet their requirements for joining up both in terms of combat and industry (they realise they need both).
The other alliance mentioned is also a possibility - the main reason I posted about what it means to claim hostile space (and the post got a little longer than I anticipated - sorry) wasn't to put a damper on it - but just to share the experiences of earlier times. The info and lessons I learned may be a little old - so I maybe off - I'm happy to stand corrected. Vac has far more recent experience of Eve "trench" warfare. I'd just rather we go in with our eyes open and understanding to buffer the experience we lack.
I agree.
Either way we need to look at the logistics as well. Let say we join a currently non-sov holding alliance. That means we would initially still be reliant on the market to get minerals to build caps (the ones not accessible in the areas we are currently in, zydrine?? etc) but if joining a already holding alliance it opens up the possibility to get the minerals "safely" from the start which should boost the production capacity by a bit or at the very least profits from production.
I don't know which is best in the long run to be honest. But as a start it seems easier to go with an already established smaller alliance than a new one.
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Generally building in non-sov space isn't an option. Miinerals can be scarce and you need BP's in the POS to make the items (BPC's are ok but you do spend time moving between empire/0.0 to ferry the items needed for production). You also need sov to build certain types of Capital ships - let alone the risk involved building when the POS is likely to be attacked. Attacking the POS while it's building/researching will stop the production cycle. The time to actually make the ship varies between 1 and 3 weeks for the common Capitals. You also need a certain type of POS Ship Array - which gives away the purpose to any cloaky ship that scouts out the POS (warping while cloaked FTW).
When a POS is attacked - the sequence of events is:
- Nothing is targetable inside the shield except the shields (by targetting the tower)
- Directors (not sure about members) get an evemail when the attack starts
- The shields buffer the attack until they run out - defenders can defend the tower from inside the shields. The shields can be remote repped (shield transfer rep) - although I can't remember if this is possible only outside the sheilds.
- The POS goes into reinforced mode (and starts consuming a fuel called Strontium) - consuming the stront at x/hour (determined by the tower size). The Med POS we have up in empire consumes 200 Stront/Hour when in reinforced mode. The main issue with Strontium is the size - it's bulky at 3 m3
- I'm not sure but I think it might be possible to load more stront when the tower is in this mode
- When the stront is consumed (there's a timer accessible but I can't remember where telling you how long it will be in reinforced for) - if the attackers return then they can destroy the tower. Defenders can repair (remote shield rep) and defend the tower
If the tower is destroyed then the attackers get to loot the spoils - fuel, ships, ammo, POS modules. If you're attacking and lucky the POS will run out of fuel generally. In which case you're able to steal the tower and the POS modules. It doesn't happen often but it is very nice when it does.
If you're in hostile space (ie you don't have sov) - you won't be mining/manufacturing in that space - if you're lucky some ratting (NPC's) but mostly lots of waiting (orbiting gates & stations) and some PvP. It can often be a trial of patience - not that there aren't fun parts - dealing with incoming hostiles, roaming for targets, scanning out safe-spots - at times it can be very exciting.
I've outlined some of the timelines involved in an earlier post with hostile space but you'll generally won't be making profit until a period of time (approx equiv to the time it took to take the space) after you have sov. It's only a finger in the air - but covers things like the initial outlay of ships, POS's, etc
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I understand.
So if we would join a non-sov holding alliance wishing to take space how big a chance would they have considering the quite large chance the opponents have access to all minerals and probably at the very least a couple of capitals to support their defense?
I'm not against fighting and taking space :) it sounds fun imo or at least exciting.
But there needs to be a reasonable chance for success in such a venture for it to be attractive from a corp level imo.
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So if we would join a non-sov holding alliance wishing to take space how big a chance would they have considering the quite large chance the opponents have access to all minerals and probably at the very least a couple of capitals to support their defense?
It can be done - but the new alliance having good relationships with an established alliance can allow you to call upon their resources during the foothold stage.
The chance of success comes down to good relationships (and follow through of support), good management, planning, intel and resources.
While Vac can't go into specifics - I think he's involved in something along these lines just with bigger fleets - maybe with the offer of candy he'll chip in with his thoughts.
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My thoughts.
This breaks down into three phases;
1. Credibility building
2. Establishment
3. Expansion
[Credibility Building]
We should join an alliance where we feel we can make a positive contribution; join something that's stable rather than nascent, and then learn our way around space. The north is notoriously stable ever since the great northern war, and MAX DAMAGE campaigns aside, areas like Branch, Tenal and Venal really don't get a whole lot of traffic.
What I do in the 'swarm is basically act either in fleet roles as an ECM specialist, or more often play insurgency roles in a cloaking ship inside enemy territory. This fits my playstyle, and I use ornan with his capships to be my cash source and mobility agent (esp once he gets on with the jump drive calibration set).
What I suggest you guys do is get further down the (cap) ship production route; get good at it with researched BPCs and then go offer that service to an established alliance; Morsus Mihi, TCF, will all have their producers, but for a small float you can probably get a piece of the action.
Pick a station system that's not a dead end near to you, make sure it's well stocked with materials and gear, use evemap to get somewhere that has half decent space, but to be honest at the beginning, you'll be lucky to get anywhere between -0.1 and -0.3. Go mine the hell out of the low-end high-ends that are available, and make it so that your station is a trade hub.
Take jita prices, and offer a small, perhaps 2-3% markup. Make some money on flow. If you're in an alliance where actually things are marketed at effective mineral prices, then forget the markup, do the pricing for good will, and make your money on self produced items, capships and rigs. People in rorquals and carriers, get those jump calibration skills up and get one or two guys into a jump freighter so you can bring in decent volumes of gear. When we get here, I'll start talking about WHAT people need in 0.0; but realistically, look at your alliances' fleet reimbursement policies and then bias towards those.
Mine and Buy minerals at a discount (especially if you're deep in 0.0, people will fill a buy order that's 60% of what they'd get in jita, purely because they don't have to carrier jump it 20 jumps - especially if they know that they'll be able to use that stuff as ships or modules).
Start going on alliance ops, don't let it interfere with the strategic plan, but if anyone has a flair for command, or covert operations, then let them indulge it to build stronger bridges with the alliance. Always monitor the alliance you're in for signs of flakiness or randomness.
[ Establishment ]
Once supply and demand stabilises, and that system becomes a bit of a trade hub because it's so well stocked (both in terms of services as well as in terms of goods - pick this station sensibly, caldari is probably the best type, then you want the associated services to be good, definitely a medical + refinery + repair + production - but you may not get that much luck) you look to take over the management of the station.
This is where real cash starts arriving because you take a small but useful cut - check for stations around and play oligarchy with this; set the same station refine tax as them - do what the petrol stations do; differentiate on services (strength of market) not core commodity.
At this point, start building caps seriously and get the alliance to put orders in - make sure the alliance you pick has a cap reimbursement programme - note that TCF have a LOT of cash from the southern dysprom moons they were taking advantage of for years, so as a result, I would bias towards them or MM - they are also very active in the european timezones; which means you won't have to worry about BoB (who are euro heavy). For every 5 or 6 alliance orders, put an order onto the main market, do this at a markup - approximately 30% over what you're selling to the alliance. This will get the 'just cashed in timecards' mob, as well as the 'more ISK than I know what to do with' people.
[ Expansion ]
This is where things really start kicking off; start providing jump bridges built, maintained and fuelled by the corp; focus on getting POS mining deathstars in place, effectively become part of the infrastructure backbone of the alliance; maybe take on a second station system 'deeper in' (which also means more trusec). All of this will be tied to growth .... At this point (and probably before) people will want to join us in droves. Don't let them. Cherry pick people who will fit in and who have the right playstyle and background. Grow by growing on the forum, so continue to build the community around the forum, then let that trickle into the corp. Fast growth kills tightly knit groups quicker than anything; and we don't want all our hard work reverse taken over.
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Some good thoughts there Vac - thanks.
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KIA have a relationship with UFA in Geminate.
I think the head of KIA is a guy that Beo doesn't have a high oppinion of...
So in terms of alliances and were to go - where does that leave us?
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Where are all your 0.0 contacts Rubi?
Goonspace isn't really a possibility - but the north (TCF/RAZOR/MM) seems stable and good ...
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I've been chatting with them but nothing decent out of the woodwork yet. Most of the good guys went to Triumvirate and Molotov - both of which are a closed shop to new corps. Some turned into Merc corps - not something for us at the mo - but watch out for those battle haulers!
Razor may have improved but they were naff.
TCF are mostly french speaking - and we're not :)
There are a few smaller ones Saf pointed out - but so far they're too small.
Ideally the alliance should have constellation sov.
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UFA is still an option if thats what people want, as well I wont have to actually deal with Eddz in Alliance channel will I? Theres just something about him that winds me up.
The North is probably a better option if we want to get out there properly into calm space (norths a giant napfest) that has little chance of a rapetrain heading its way - BoB tried that already - and give 0.0 life a go. Although lots of established and organised cap builders up that way already.
Providence is most likely going to become a no-no (and its shit anyway) as I'll no doubt cause incidents there when SHC's ganknight rolls that way on Saturday. Avoided any such thing at the AU class, but I dont think I'll manage it this weekend :)
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So where is everyone's head on this, it's been about 3 weeks since we had the vote, so we're half way through the 4-6 week process ... everyone still up for this?
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yes im still up for this, im just not so valuable concerning contacts in alliances. the one i have seems to be a nono
so to be honest i am looking at the more experienced ppl for some decisions here. prolly not the prettiest thing of me to do, but here i am...
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btw, im a bit confused, we're looking for an alliance that aint too big, cause we will be fodder, but not too small either? what size are we looking for then?
what is constellation sov?
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The CCP KB article is: http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=343
Which to paraphrase:
Constellation Sovereignty
In order to acquire constellation sovereignty, the following is required:
* At least three outposts or conquerable stations within the constellation.
* At least one system with sovereignty level three, with the two following added requirements:
o An outpost or conquerable station located in the system.
o This outpost/conquerable station set to be the capital under the station management tab.
* Sovereignty held in at least 51% of the systems in that constellation.
* All of these conditions need to be met for 14 days.
Once all of these conditions have been met, constellation sovereignty will be enabled for that constellation after the following downtime.
Benefits
There are several benefits to constellation sovereignty:
* A further fuel usage reduction, 30% instead of the usual 25% for all alliance owned control towers in the same constellation.
* All outposts within the constellation can receive further upgrades. For more information, refer to the outpost upgrades article.
* Any systems within the constellation with no sovereignty claim can be claimed after only a single day by the alliance holding constellation sovereignty.
* The system set to be the capital of the constellation can, when the other requirements are met, become the Constellation Capital.
Constellation Sovereignty Warfare
If one of the following requirements are met, constellation sovereignty will change to a contested mode:
* The alliance holding constellation sovereignty loses sovereignty control of the majority of the systems in the constellation.
* The alliance holding constellation sovereignty loses control of the minimum of three outposts or conquerable stations in the constellation.
* The alliance holding constellation sovereignty loses control of the capital outpost or conquerable station.
When constellation sovereignty has been contested for a period of seven consecutive downtimes, constellation sovereignty will be broken and the attacking alliance can take over the former constellation capital.
While it's not required - it would be ideal in many ways: It means running towers costs less (lower fuel needs for the towers) and allows some handy POS modules for defence and transport.
If the allaince is too big then there are likely to be high competion for the 0.0 resources (ratting mostly) and higher alliance costs (the corp will have to pay a weekly/monthly amount to be in that space). An alliance that's too small will control less space and probably be more fragile. Many smaller alliances will be essentially part of 0.0 factional warfare - meaning merc type corps. Some of the smaller alliances I looked at yesterday were approx 8 corps - many of the corp had only a few players in.
You can find information about alliances in eve here: http://www.eve-online.com/alliances/default.asp
If you look at the UFA alliance here: http://www.eve-online.com/alliances/a_849565342.asp - then you'll see why they are attractive. Many of the corps in the alliance are around our size, they have a decent number of players for the space they they occupy in 0.0. They are anti-priate - which is good as it means they're not making an income only by living off other players. They're also in an expansion mode - which means the space they control is growing and there is an opportunity for directed pvp. It also means we get a chance to prove our worth and grow with them into new areas without taking on too much. Additionally they're not too far from us - which means we don't need a JF from day 1 and can look to getting one 4-6 weeks down the line.
Once we find an alliance and we're accepted it'll take us a week to: buy the resources needed to setup (towers, fuel, etc), move and setup POS's, move ships & eq into the area and, should they have an outpost - setup Jump Clones.
Then once in 0.0 it'll take us 4-6 weeks to get used to the space, recover the investment costs of setting up, to have built up enough local resources to start pushing our manufacturing - and to understand how 0.0 works with combat & pvp.
Combat in 0.0 has many faces and many of the skills you currently have will be valuable. It's hard to stress how important it is but being able to tackle (small fast ship that can lock down a hostile) is much more valueable than something that just deals dmg. Yes - you're gonna get blown up a lot - but a tackling ship is generally very cheap and we will *always* have tacklers at our POS. Tackling is also a very good way to just learning about pvp and it's a very good foundation as you get larger ships.
Combat in 0.0 is also rarely alone. You'll be part of an alliance with alliance intel channels. You'll be able to particiapte in alliance gangs as soon as you're in 0.0.
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My char is nowhere near being good enough for it but I'm up for it if nothing else I can always be cannonfodder haha
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Just an additional note as many of you haven't use POS's and the current KASSI POS isn't setup this way.
Most if not all the POS's the corp will have in 0.0 will have a Corporate Hanger and a Ship Maint Array.
This allows you to store/get ships from the POS and refit them - much as you can do currently if you're near an Orca/Capital ship.
We'll be trying to ensure that there are always ships available at the POS both Frigs and Cruisers. There will also be fittings and ammo available - so you'll be able to refit quickly.
There's some logistics needed to ensure we have enough of what's needed and coverage of how people fit - but mostly it's administration/tracking/management.
In PvP it's less about the solo and more about the group - everybody has roles they can fill - just over time you're more flexible and able to take on more of them.
Actual experience in combat is very different from the skills in evemon - there are times you should warp out and there are times you need to dig in - and as the guys learned in the Agony course recently - "hands on" really teaches you a lot.
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I'm still researching other options and will update this post as I find any but how about:
Intrepid Crossing:
Summary:
They're larger than I was thinking of - so it'll be harder to make an impact - but look organised. They appear to have good relationships with other alliances in their zone of eve (mid-west).
They hold a number of outposts and have Const sov in a few.
KB Stats: http://irc.eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&crp_id=442
Eve Alliance Info: http://www.eve-online.com/alliances/a_673381830.asp
Background: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=979593&page=1#3
ESM Link: http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancechart.asp?FilterType=Alliance&FilterBy=IRC
I've also looked at:
Tread Alliance
Summary:
They're not very good. The Kill/Death ratio is, at best, borderline 50/50. While they're in 0.0 - the area of space they're in is pretty hot. I recognise a few of the names of some of the people blowing them up - and I wouldn't want to go up against them without an experienced group.
KB: http://www.treadalliance.com/killboard/?a=alliance_detail&
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Isn't it a bit risky for an alliance to not control the approaches toward empire space?? IRC seems to be rather boxed in?
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Aye - that can be a problem - you usually have Non Aggression Pacts (NAP) or Friends - which via standings means they appear with a blue + in local and the overview.
The main problem with with logistics - it makes it harder moving in/out.
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Aye - that can be a problem - you usually have Non Aggression Pacts (NAP) or Friends - which via standings means they appear with a blue + in local and the overview.
The main problem with with logistics - it makes it harder moving in/out.
Where can you see standings between them and their neighbours??
From what I could see they have a part of the RSF (is that the right name?? goonswarm and allies you know) to the south and some more equal size alliance to the west and what looks like much larger to the east and north.
Of course potential conflict in itself isn't bad :) and to be honest I have no clue about how the relations work there. But that one looks very boxed in and unless it has very good relations with the block to the south it could potentially look hazardous if a major conflict breaks out.
The likelihood of that I have no clue.
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UFA is still an option if thats what people want, as well I wont have to actually deal with Eddz in Alliance channel will I? Theres just something about him that winds me up.
Ok, this has been one of the prime targets from the beginning. So...
- Do ppl know ppl in UFA?
- (If so,) has the subject been brought up?
- To Beo: In the above quote you say 'if thats what people want'. I still taste that UFA isnt your first choice, or is it?
- To Beo: Is the disliking of you and Eddz mutual, or just one way? In the first case us joining UFA won't be a good choice IMHO. In the second case: see former question -> responsibilities within MAADI are getting a bit more decentralized, but you will be the alpha-male in our corp for at least a long time to come. IMO if you dont like it, its not a good idea.
- If there are nó probs, I don't see why we shouldnt try to make an effort to join UFA. But I have always been one of rapid decision taking, which isnt always good.
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You can't easily see standings - you have to dig around, find their KB and see who they fly with and who they're up against. Sometimes they have info on their alliance info page, sometimes there's info on the forums. Usually if they hold a large chunk of space with many outposts - then they'll have good relationships with those around them. They wouldn't hold them for long without.
The ESM link helps - as it shows how long they have had sov for with a 90 day history (I think) and shows general progression win/loss, etc.
Intrepid Crossing is a possible - but I don't think optimal - but I'm throwing it out as an option. While I think currently that UFA would give us best bang/buck and the chance to grow - I want to ensure that we have examined other options.
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UFA is still an option if thats what people want, as well I wont have to actually deal with Eddz in Alliance channel will I? Theres just something about him that winds me up.
The North is probably a better option if we want to get out there properly into calm space (norths a giant napfest) that has little chance of a rapetrain heading its way - BoB tried that already - and give 0.0 life a go. Although lots of established and organised cap builders up that way already.
Providence is most likely going to become a no-no (and its shit anyway) as I'll no doubt cause incidents there when SHC's ganknight rolls that way on Saturday. Avoided any such thing at the AU class, but I dont think I'll manage it this weekend :)
UFA isn't KIA or have I misunderstood things?
However you are the CEO ;) you have the final say imo.
edit:
Also, thinking ahead a bit, if an alliance isn't as suitable as they looked we can pack up and move right?
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Aye - you can pack up and move out.
I'm trying to contact old friends in a corp, VHI, to see what they're up to - I heard a rumour that they might be looking to push into Geminate again.
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UFA seem fine - and Intrepid Crossing's space is good, large, and surrounded by BLUE ...
And it's a good way to get to know the space and the surrounding alliances.
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Aye - more space with probably more options and an existing Jump Bridge network.
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Digging deeper & chatting with Vac it looks like Intreped might be a better option for us.
The have better and more space, are active in PvP and the quality of their space means better range & scope of belts, they have a jump bridge network and a good volume of players.
They have good standings with their neighbours and are + to Vac's corp/alliance.
The downside is the distance - it's a fair number of jumps - around 41 from Anttiri.
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Digging deeper & chatting with Vac it looks like Intreped might be a better option for us.
The have better and more space, are active in PvP and the quality of their space means better range & scope of belts, they have a jump bridge network and a good volume of players.
They have good standings with their neighbours and are + to Vac's corp/alliance.
The downside is the distance - it's a fair number of jumps - around 41 from Anttiri.
Ok, that sounds good.
Why would that distance matter?? When we move our operations will mostly be in the region except for some hauling to market centers i suppose?
So sure the distance is a problem initially but how much of a problem would it be after we have established ourselves?
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Two things to bear in mind:
1. Drone regions are great because they have lots of mineral rich rats that mean the corp can get minerals really easily unfortunately there is no bounty on rats
2. Drone regions suck because they have lots of mineral rich rats that mean the corp can get minerals really easily unfortunately there is no bounty on rats
However, lots of exploration and mining options out there ... and IRC seem decent enough, though need to get clarity on what being a member of their alliance means & requires.
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Looks like around 17 jumps from Anttiri to the first of the systems they control that is Jump Bridge capable.
The corp MPP would need to be updated from the Drone droppings but it is a vehicle for making money from the drones.
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Digging deeper & chatting with Vac it looks like Intreped might be a better option for us.
The have better and more space, are active in PvP and the quality of their space means better range & scope of belts, they have a jump bridge network and a good volume of players.
They have good standings with their neighbours and are + to Vac's corp/alliance.
The downside is the distance - it's a fair number of jumps - around 41 from Anttiri.
Active in pvp :) just hope they do better in "real world" pvp than the tournament haha
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Their KB looks pretty decent.
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UFA is still an option if thats what people want, as well I wont have to actually deal with Eddz in Alliance channel will I? Theres just something about him that winds me up.
Ok, this has been one of the prime targets from the beginning. So...
- Do ppl know ppl in UFA?
- (If so,) has the subject been brought up?
- To Beo: In the above quote you say 'if thats what people want'. I still taste that UFA isnt your first choice, or is it?
- To Beo: Is the disliking of you and Eddz mutual, or just one way? In the first case us joining UFA won't be a good choice IMHO. In the second case: see former question -> responsibilities within MAADI are getting a bit more decentralized, but you will be the alpha-male in our corp for at least a long time to come. IMO if you dont like it, its not a good idea.
- If there are nó probs, I don't see why we shouldnt try to make an effort to join UFA. But I have always been one of rapid decision taking, which isnt always good.
nagging beo with a bump of this post
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I've been looking at alternatives for the 0.0 alliance we join and have come up with Ethereal Dawn (ED).
I know somebody in their chain of command who will vouch for us and have given me a contact to talk to futher should we be interested.
The main region they control is along the Southern Eastern side of eve - just west of where Intrepid Crossing (IRC) are.
ED are blue to IRC and also to Goon but they get plenty of action jugding by their killboard.
They appear to have good control over their region, sov over a decent number of them and are close to the drone regions. They also have sov of systems just south of the drone regions.
Eve Strategic Maps
Detail: http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/all.asp?FilterType=Alliance&FilterBy=ED
Overview: http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancechart.asp?FilterType=Alliance&FilterBy=ED
Recent Inflience Map: http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png
Eve-o Alliance Page: http://www.eve-online.com/alliances/a_494403294.asp
Not their offical KB but show recent activity (eve-kb): http://eve-kb.com/view.php?type=alliance&name=Ethereal+Dawn&filter=kills
Official KB: http://kb.etherealdawn.org/?a=about
An alternative view of their systems (Jove Labs): http://www.jovelabs.com/alliance/494403294
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Either look fine to me, ED seems safer due to control over their own access to 0.0.
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I'd like to move swiftly on this - the BoB affair is going to shake things up and could gives us some opportunities.
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ED sounds like the best option I've read sofar...
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I'd like to move swiftly on this - the BoB affair is going to shake things up and could gives us some opportunities.
I agree with this.
Any larger alliance (both ED and IRC are quite large from what I can see) will rush to claim bob space and as they do that they will need people and industry to support expansion both we provide (especially mining hehe).
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Neither IRC or Ed have moved into the old BoB space. Just look at the recent map from this afternoon.
If moving to Delve or Querious is the thought here for the IMMEDIATE future (read now), look at the alliances moving into that space - although also look at the power blocs willing to fight them to take it too (Delve is pretty darn rich for a region) and look into those as an alternative to a group that may not actually be able to defend such space easily.
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The region will be in flux and the map is always a day behind - and sov needs a DT to kick in.
From the Goon KB they've started on some of Bob's tower already.
Any alliancing trying for systems down there have about 48 hours until any newly formed Bob Alliance will have corps and any related sov - and it'll be 30 days before you have enough sov for jammers.
The goon KB was showing around 120 kills today in and around Delve and Vac's been down there all day camping - racking up 40-50 kills so far.
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If moving to Delve or Querious is the thought here for the IMMEDIATE future (read now), look at the alliances moving into that space
Goonswarm? :D
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Vac can answer better but I don't think they would be accepting new corps at the mo
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Sorry, Goon doesn't open recruit. Otherwise I'd have suggested it at the start. :)
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Ok Guys and Gals - we have some progess.
We've arranged with Pandemic Legion (PL) to rent some of their 0.0 space in Fountain.
There's a little ground work still needed to ensure that the standings have been set by all parties.
It'll take a couple of days before we can use their stations in 0.0 & scount for an appropriate system to setup a tower.
I'll be putting together an information pack shortly about the who/what/where etc.
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Ok Guys and Gals - we have some progess.
We've arranged with Pandemic Legion (PL) to rent some of their 0.0 space in Fountain.
There's a little ground work still needed to ensure that the standings have been set by all parties.
It'll take a couple of days before we can use their stations in 0.0 & scount for an appropriate system to setup a tower.
I'll be putting together an information pack shortly about the who/what/where etc.
How much do we have to pay :)
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5M ISK/Head/Month
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5M ISK/Head/Month
Is that per account , char or player?
edit: hehe maybe I should just wait for the information pack
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Per member in the corp - which is currently at 51 people :)
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ok, this is a cool development! nice going diplo! :)
but as i understand it we dont become a member of PL alliance, but rather an inhabitant of their space?
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Aye. We'll be blue to all the needed corp/alliances. We'll also see those who are supposed to be blue to us also.
Anybody else is fair game... and it's a short hop to Delve :)
We'll have access to about 3 stations also - I'll post the info-pack when it's ready & has some transport information so you can get an overview.
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I'll take my non-contributing alts (Swuleia and Swuuler) out of the Corp. No point to pay 10 million for them when they will make absolutely zero thigns in 0.0.
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No need - the first month is paid and the cost will be covered in the first hour of mining.
Besides - they'll be useful also there :)
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Besides - they'll be useful also there :)
I seriously doubt it :) Swuuler is my trader alt sitting in Jita, while Swuleia is the kamikaze pilot flying Ibises and Condors if distraction is needed ;)
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Swuleia is the kamikaze pilot flying Ibises and Condors if distraction is needed ;)
I smell a cyno alt ;)
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How about we make some sort of "guidance document" as to what direction the corp is aiming currently?
Nothing complex of course but for example from what I have understood is our primary direction currently:
"Ma'adim is a pvp/industrial corp which current goal is to establish a industrial base in 0.0 in order to become a capital ship building corp in addition to this the corp has a goal of becoming Tech 3 producers with a heavy presence in W-Space to extract the needed resources to fuel T3 production and research"
In other words just something to sum up what we have for a aim for our own members, the corp description should be as empty as possible in game.
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I agree with that Peo, lets all have a play with words and see what we come up with. I'd prefer this direction to be a group thing rather than an "edict" from above.
One thing from my pov though:
capital ship building corp in addition to this the corp has a goal of becoming Tech 3 producers with a heavy presence in W-Space to extract the needed resources to fuel T3 production and research"
I think we should do one or the other. Both is alot harder to balance and could see us spread too thin with our current numbers - basically trying to do too much for our size. Hell the same could be said for thoughts of T2 production (although being part of a spaceholding alliance could help with that regards access to moons.)
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I'm no expert on production/research. Just seems that t3 would be a good and natural follow up on wh expeditions.
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I'm no expert on production/research. Just seems that t3 would be a good and natural follow up on wh expeditions.
Dont get me wrong I totally agree it is the best option regards wormholing, but doing it along with other isk and time intensive things like caps or t2 is not something to be undertaken lightly. its one problem is - how certain is its future? How much will it be used by the playing populace? Is t3 really worth looking at at this early a stage given its semi-unfisihed and limited in scope?
Caps requires alot of isk for startup - we have a large number of the parts bpcs/bpos available which lessens that, but then theres the actual ship bp's to purchase (using BPC's is all well and good, but ideally we'd want our own bpo's so we arent paying out for bpc's lessening possible profits from every build, more so if we bill ourselves to alliances as cap builders - we wont be able to gouge our alliance mates just to keep a profit going as that can and does cause resentment.
T2 - needs moons for materials / reactions for the t2 components. Moons obviously require space holding/ability to defend operations and aid in overall security. Requires invention to get the T2 bpc's from t1 bpos using a stack of things from t1 versions of the thing you want all the way to decryptors and datacores. Problem with this is - the better the moons the less likely a corp new to an alliance will be given access to what they have (and the universe's majority of r64 moons are in Russian (AAA's space is good for them) & Goon hands (Delve especially is covered in them). Beter moons give better reactions/moon mis for the better (read more expensive components). T2 production is nearly a closed business thanks to the mineral requirements of the component side of things and how volatile that market is (t2 component prices have seen a 25% rise in the past 4 months, resulting in t2 item/ship prices increasing too) whereas once it used to be limited due to T2 BPO ownership - lucky invention made that less of a limiting factor.
T3 looks easier to get into, can be done anywhere really with the 0.0/lowsec holes just giving a better chance of better materials from the sleepers/sites within them. Just takes time to skill for - tanking/dps skills, creation skills, exploration skills and what not and then time to get into the holes to do the shooty to haul stuff back and get the actual creation done. Given its all findable, theres little isk layoput beyond the manufacturing side (im still unclear as to IF there are limits on where T3 ships can be built - ie it could be that they are limited to being built at poses and thats only in low or 0.0 etc)
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I personally don't think t2 is the way to go, if someone wants to do it by themselves go ahead but seems to be to complicated to get the materials to be a viable way to make money for the corp.
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If we are to pick one of cap and t3 I would be more inclined to go towards t3 since I think the potential profit there is far greater for us than in cap production. However it would require we get in from the start so we would get the bpo's for components researched to a high me/pe level and so on.
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At this moment I'd be more inclined to go for cap ships. W-space being a risky area, and we not being able to field 10-20 man gangs, serious ops in W-space are not something I see us do.
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If we are to pick one of cap and t3 I would be more inclined to go towards t3 since I think the potential profit there is far greater for us than in cap production. However it would require we get in from the start so we would get the bpo's for components researched to a high me/pe level and so on.
The blueprints drop as BPC's.
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There's a lot of profit to be made with T2 and while it's complicated - I don't think it's something we should dismiss lightly.
The main issue with T2, aside from the complexity, is that it's generally a personal rather than a corp enterprise. The only involvement of the corp is really the POS reactions - emptying and filling the silos and moving the products of the reactions. The moon we have in Fountain was chosen as I know some people would like to get into T2 production - and it provides 2 components used in T2 production.
I'll stick a Moon Harvester + solo on it shortly - it's just been a matter of priorities so far. I don't think there will be an issue with moon access should we join an alliance - if the moon is empty then us dropping a POS on it wouldn't be a problem. If somebody gives me an ordered list of which moon elements they want - I'll have something to refer to for future POS's.
I have experience with building Capitals in 0.0 - and one of the reasons it's profitable is that it's easy and very light in manpower and it's only requirement (outside of the BPOs) is minerals - which are usually easy to mine/buy. While I've not started with any buy orders yet in Fountain - I'll be looking into it soon (again - my priority has been the move). The BPOs are expensive but using BPC's as a stop-gap and then buying researched BPOs to get a complete set is a step-wise process. The markets for Capitals (and T2) in 0.0 is fairly constant - which helps a lot with logistics (you don't need to move them much). It's a very good profit maker for the corp - the Orcas we manufactured generated over 1B ISK profit for the corp. Based on the corps Mineral Purchase Programme - Capitals tend to generate around 50% profit and have enabled us to implement the Industrial and Combat Ship Programmes for members.
The T3 market is something I think we should seriously consider. It has strong parrallels with mining (both gas and minerals are needed) and it's a fairly simple process - less complicated than the T2 but a good stepping stone into T2. T3 ships are very accessible to those in the corp and I prefer that the number 1 consumer of what we manufacture is the corp (a negative point for Capitals currently). It also has the potenital to be a very good profit maker for the corp. T3 can be done both in 0.0 and low-sec - I think only one part of the process (the fulleride reactions) require a POS. T3 requires a fair amount of activity in W-Space. The components come from actually doing the sites and as Beo just mentioned - some of BPC's drop from the site - the others have to be reverse engineered. All BPC's so far are 3-run and we don't have much information regarding the frequency rate of drops. From a Reverse Engineering side - the success rate is between 20-25% on the job.
Summary:
I'm not sure we need to pick one direction over the other at the moment. We have some Capital Capability, some people want to go into T2 and others want T3. The logical order of things (based on the manufacturing process) is: Capitals (mining), Tech 3 (mining/missions) and Tech 2 (logistics, research).
Update:
The Corp Purchase list will need to be updated to include T3 items to encourage participation in W-Space - which is no mean feat considering the unknown element of the sale price. Maybe a baselined revsere manufacturing profit share is a better idea for the next couple of months.
ie (numbers chosen at random and using a loose 2* multiplier for simplicity):
128 items needed to manufacture a T3 hull.
Start with a baseline of each component that a player provides gives them 2/256th of the profit of the sale. After week 1 - we asses drop rates based on what's been supplied and adjust (so part a drops twice as much and therefore gets 1/256th of the profit for the sale. It's complicated but just one idea for an approach.
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If we are to pick one of cap and t3 I would be more inclined to go towards t3 since I think the potential profit there is far greater for us than in cap production. However it would require we get in from the start so we would get the bpo's for components researched to a high me/pe level and so on.
The blueprints drop as BPC's.
Are you sure??
Found this on the eve-o forums (which of course doesn't mean that it is right)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1025413
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Well this might be very obvious, but...
(IMHO-alert!) Before we decide to go T3, we might first want to make some test runs. How frequent can we do runs into W-space, how many ppl are willing/able to participate frequently etc.? Given we have lost some ppl playing regularly recently (Vac, Mac, .NERF) and that we might lose more ppl for whatever reasons, we might want to start out as simple as possible.
Our cap-ship program is far from complete, but we have put quite some effort/isk in it already.
My idea would be to use cap-production as a base and see what we can do on the side over the next month(s).
Possible drawbacks of this route:
doing it along with other isk and time intensive things like caps or t2 is not something to be undertaken lightly
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If we are to pick one of cap and t3 I would be more inclined to go towards t3 since I think the potential profit there is far greater for us than in cap production. However it would require we get in from the start so we would get the bpo's for components researched to a high me/pe level and so on.
The blueprints drop as BPC's.
Are you sure??
Found this on the eve-o forums (which of course doesn't mean that it is right)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1025413
I made the same mistake as the guy in that thread it seems. So there are some BPO's for T3 stuff :)
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The universe wide avg of WH's is 1/3 systems have one. Now not all WH's are created equal (and frequency data is incomplete) - the WH types found in empire are: K-Space <->K-Space, K-Space <-> W-Space.
Now you can use this data in 2 ways :)
(1) You can run a group and scan and you'll find an avg of 1 WH in every 3 systems
(2) A system will have a WH in every 3 days (bearing in mind that on avg a WH lasts a day if it expires due to time rather than mass)
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If we are to pick one of cap and t3 I would be more inclined to go towards t3 since I think the potential profit there is far greater for us than in cap production. However it would require we get in from the start so we would get the bpo's for components researched to a high me/pe level and so on.
The blueprints drop as BPC's.
Are you sure??
Found this on the eve-o forums (which of course doesn't mean that it is right)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1025413
I made the same mistake as the guy in that thread it seems. So there are some BPO's for T3 stuff :)
Aye but the important BP's (subsystems and hulls) are always BPCs - which means you can manufacture/stockpile materials with the choke point being the materials and the "end-product" BPCs.
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Cap production skill wise is the easiest for us, as we have already all the skill needed in that sector and we have the rocks nearby for production.
Tech 2 uses a HUGE variety of skills and whilst i have most of the sciences these arent trained past 1 or 2 mostly (apart from graviton mech eng and caldari starship that is)
Tech 3 manufacturing skills are just plain nuts, dont believe me search contracts for a BP and have a look
p.s. is the corp interested in my T2 salvage ;) the salvage sites in 0.0 drop T2 and its not on prices if not ill sell it open market.
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Which direction involves blowing up other players ships the most?
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My prodction/miner started on the road of T2/T3 construction - while he has some of the skills - he doesn't have all.
He has about 30d left for training on them but he's been diverted for about 30d so he can also fly & use the Rorqual (he has the skills already to use the Compression BPs - so it would be nuts to sidetrack Red into getting them currently).
When he can use the Rorqual - then I'll put him back on the T2/T3 route.
I believe he can currently make the Electronic and Defensive Subsystems but I'd have to check to be sure.
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Which direction involves blowing up other players ships the most?
Piracy - killing wormholers and stealing their loot (helps with t3 :D)
Shooting caps - then selling people caps :)
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Killing hostiles generally and salvaging their wrecks (needs salvaging to a decent lvl for T2 ships)
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Killing hostiles generally and salvaging their wrecks (needs salvaging to a decent lvl for T2 ships)
say that again , stumbled across an abandoned wreck near a gate and so set about it with my single Salvager, with salvaging at 3 took easily 5-10 mins to salvage from the wreck but the T2 salvage components recieved were worth it ;)
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Weighing in with my support for a dialogue to be opened formally with Event Horizon :)
Arcane are too crumbly and really come across as lamer than the sum of their parts when it comes to fighting Puppets and anyone that even looks at them funny!
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Ok Guys and Gals.
The application to join the Event Horizon has been accepted by the Executor Corp :)
It will come into effect in approx 24 hours (probably after DT) on Wednesday 25th March 2009.
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Ok Guys and Gals.
The application to join the Event Horizon has been accepted by the Executor Corp :)
It will come into effect in approx 24 hours (probably after DT) on Wednesday 25th March 2009.
Sweet :)
Was so simple to do.
Be prepared for yet another chat channel guys.
Do we have any outofgame links for EH we need to utilise?
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I'll update the Fountain player infopack with the details.
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Ok Guys and Gals.
The application to join the Event Horizon has been accepted by the Executor Corp :)
It will come into effect in approx 24 hours (probably after DT) on Wednesday 25th March 2009.
Nice :)
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Ok - so to summerize this tread regarding direction - the general thinking appears to be:
1) Cap Ship Construction
2) Tech 3
3) Tech 2
In order of general priorities - not that these are exclusive but general wayposts.
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I think that seems to be the "simplest" and most efficient way to make ourselves matter :)
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Was thinking a bit.
We lose lots of minerals/cash to refining so would a longer term goal for us perhaps be to get a outpost of our own with a refinery?
Would give us a probably much cheeper refine and a added source of minerals in the tax for others.
Of course I have no idea if that would be allowed or profitable but as a long term goal I mean.
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Would be cool :D
But I think you could loose a lot of minerals/cash before an outpost becomes profitable.
Have no notion about costs involved though, so dont mind me ;)
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Would be cool :D
But I think you could loose a lot of minerals/cash before an outpost becomes profitable.
Have no notion about costs involved though, so dont mind me ;)
If we would buy the minerals etc I think it would cost between 20 and 30b.
But as I said, a long term idea :)
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I took the liberty to rent an office in Alpernaut top station (V-5).
Couldnt hurt for 10k/month i thought.
Will drop my stuff there
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Thanks :)
What with turning another year and working on the website - I've been distracted the past couple of days.
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Someone hiding his birthday? ;)