Author Topic: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown  (Read 4916 times)

Offline Torgal

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Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« on: October 06, 2008, 10:17:21 AM »
Though I'd take a minute to examine the differences between rune priests and archmagi, and a little on AM mechanics. I thought it was worthy of a new topic, despite being originally a reply to Gunnarr in the AP regen thread. I rambled on a little!

One thing I noticed by going on spell descriptions from wardb etc, is that the non-boosted numbers from AM/shamans are about as high as the full-healer numbers from RPriests/Zealots.

Yep, the AM is entirely equivalent to a RP at least up until T3 in terms of the healing potential they have. Indeed, many of the spells are analagous. They also benefit highly from the focussed nature of their talent trees - one for healing, one for dps and one for ... utility I guess. An archmage who decides to specialise in healing can invest all their points in the healing tree which will boost all their relevant healing spells as well as providing access to the relevant tactics/abilities in that tree. A RP on the other hand has three trees all dedicated to different styles of dps/healing. One for direct effects, one for over time effects (HoT, DoT) and one for AoE effects, forcing the RP to make a choice therefore clearly neglecting at least 1/3 of our healing arsenal.

It's been said that in T4 when talents really start to show through, an archmage will be able to push higher raw HPS on a single target than a RP. I can well believe it.

It looks to me like the only counterbalancing factor is a wider amount of (group-)buffs for the RP/ZL.

So yeah, given what I stated above, there must be counterbalancing measures. I believe they are sufficient, and it boils down to one thing - a RP can acheive a slightly better level of survivability in PvP than an Archmage since we have better mobility. The majority of an AM's heals have a cast time and/or are HoTs. RP gets an instant cast direct heal from level 1, which contributes a lot to healing on the move. There are cases where RP has good utility, as is the case with the excellent master runes (though they do require choosing them in your spec and they are currently broken). I do not know if AM's have anything which provides equivalent utility.

Grimnir's Shield is a huge benefit (though the AM AoE detaunt may be similarly powerful), and Rune of Sundering which can be improved with a tactic to reduce the cd to 20 seconds and add a snare for a few seconds. Detaunts are clearly important for healer survivability, but are available to all healing classes so far as I am aware, so not much point mentioning them.

The oath runes are ok, but not that much of a difference since the best buff is the resistance buff anyway, so we're largely similar on that point. Though later a rune becomes available which adds toughness and a self-res.

As I see it, you're pretty much free to do as you please, but if you do need to "switch" regularly, you'll rake in extra bonuses. I think the mechanic is pretty nifty actually, since it doesn't limit you in any way - you're still an ace healer even if you only healbot, and you still churn out respectable damage for a healing class.

The AM/Shaman mechanic is an odd one, you'd think it rewards a hybrid style of play, but I really don't think it does in it's current state.

If you're a healer, you're going to want to heal and nothing else, because even with 5 pips your non-talented, non-tacticed, low +int gear damage spell is going to be a wonderful waste of AP, and AP is gold dust in this game - it's really the limiting factor for everything. The only thing I think is worthwhile doing is the AP drain spell, which is very beneficial to your overall effectiveness in terms of reducing the opposition's team to function, and becomes instant cast at 5 pips.

The reverse situation can be examined. If you desire to acheive the best HPS / highest / most effective healing, in order for the mechanic to be in any way useful you would have to be rewarded sufficiently for casting damage spells. As it stands, you are not, because the amount of time / AP it takes to build up 3+ ticks is much greater than the amount of time / AP it costs to cast any single one of the AM's heals. Again, you're better off ignoring the mechanic.

It's a gimmick, though I won't deny it's an interesting one. I do absolutely agree that it's a good thing that you're not forced to make use of it to be effective, but I do not think it's something that should be actively detrimental to your chosen role if you do. You should be able to acheive better effectiveness through active use of all your classes abilities, and that's not currently the case.

I'm normally not a fan of pointless speculation, but I'll indulge myself here. I think it could be improved such that it would lead to a greater level of hybridisation among AM's, if such was Mythic's intention. For example - build up 5 pips of Force, and your next 5 healing spells are boosted, bringing your pips back into alignment, rather than just your next single spell.

It's hard to articulate this, think of it as a sliding scale moving from -5 to +5. When you cast a healing spell you gain +1, when you cast a dmg spell you gain -1. At different ends of the meter, the opposite spell type is improved by the amount that you are further away from the zero point. This would probably require some rebalancing, as it'd be a fairly significant buff for the class.

Comments / discussion very welcome.

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Offline Envicta

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2008, 10:52:53 AM »

Have to agree with you..

The AM mechanic is very odd and does not promote equal use of DPS and Healing,    rather it allows you to do 1 of them 95% of them with a little dabble into the other now and again.

AM’s have therefore become healbots,  because there DPS side is underpowered and frankly awful…

Sorry for WoW-reference,  but in WOW you had Druids, Paladins and Priests.    They each had a unique way of healing,  each with its pro/con.    Druids were the masters of HOTs,  Paladins were endurance specialists and Priests had the big numbers and utility.     

We don't have that in WAR,     all 3 healing careers share HoT's, Direct heals and various utilties.

The WP is unique in the sense its melee-focused and has far improved survival over the other 2,  but I just don't see any unique differences between the RP and AM.

So to summarise...     With the AM mechanics making DPS difficult on a class that struggles with DPS,     you force them into a healing role,  which unfortunately is going to come up short of a RP in my opinion.

Being a few weeks into WAR,    I see lots of changes ahead :)

Invicta.




Offline Jarkko

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2008, 11:06:32 AM »
Archmages were nerfed pretty seriously during the last week of closed beta, especially the dual-nature. An Asuryan specced AM would go around self-casting Lambent Aura, thus always having a HoT running on them just in case and also building Tranq. Then when seeing an opponent, smoke him from his boots with the +50% boosted Searing Touch (100 feet range is *nice*) from Tranquility being at 5 -> they toned down the buff of Tranquility to 5% per tick I think, and removed Searing touch from Conductivity tactics (which gave a further 20% boost to damage IIRC).

I wouldn't be suprised if AM's/shamans will see a (slight) buff to their dual nature. As for the current situation, I  believe it's not something to cheer for?

Offline Pythias

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2008, 01:28:22 PM »
Well i agree Archmage mechanics does not correspond to Mythic promises. Maybe originally they wanted to make spells cheaper with High Magic, not stronger / quicker casting. ATM i agree it's just a gimmick. My current damage / healing ratio in scenarions is often below 1 : 10. Also, most of the time there is not enough healers so all spam heals till i'm dry.

Despite that, i decided to go Vaul for group RvR - "debuff tree":
- Radiant Gaze 5% damage and 5% crit chance debuff plus our strongest DoT which can be boosted by Tranquility and turn into aoe with a tactic
- Scatter the Winds ranged 50% healing debuff with DoT component, with 9sec duration and 10sec CD
- Rain Lord i have seen some comments that this debuff reduces mobs dps in the magnitude of 15%, probably less on players (?)
- Law of Age i would guesstimate that it translates into few per cent damage taken increase

@Torgal
- No, AMs have no comparable abilities to Master Runes or even Oath Runes (only one univeral +resist grp buff)
- Our shield is for some completely <insert an adjective> reason usable only on group members
- Our AOE detaunt, Walk between Worlds has only 5sec duration so if knocked down / back i'm not even able to cast one 3secs heal before it expires. Its CD can be reduced from 60secs to 20secs With tactics with tactics.
- Our knockback Wind Blast is frontal cone with small snare component, 60secs CD and i don't think it can be reduced.
- AM does not have AP drain, only shamans have. Our spell is instant cast AP destruction with negligible damage component, you need tactics to get some AP back. This difference ofc contributes to stronger AP starvation for AMs.

Offline Torgal

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2008, 02:19:38 PM »
- AM does not have AP drain, only shamans have. Our spell is instant cast AP destruction with negligible damage component, you need tactics to get some AP back. This difference ofc contributes to stronger AP starvation for AMs.

I suppose I erroneously used the word drain, since I actually had no clue that the shammy gained the AP back from the spell. Still, it's quite odd that AM doesn't.

Thanks for the info.

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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2008, 08:47:36 PM »
Great topic! :)

Just a short note from me atm, since I should be getting into bed:
Yes, the resistance buff is superior to the others (at least in RvR), but if I find myself in the same group with an AM it's still VERY nice to be able to switch my buffs to str/int for dps classes, and to wis/ini for healers/ranged classes. Also in PvE the resistance buff is only superior to the others for tanks.
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Offline Peter

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 06:44:01 PM »
I wouldn't be suprised if AM's/shamans will see a (slight) buff to their dual nature. As for the current situation, I  believe it's not something to cheer for?
The current situation is, in a word, horrible outside soloing - unless you like being a healbot. WARNING: MASSIVE WHINE POST INCOMING.




I was reminded recently of this video from 2006 describing character classes - and can only say that the AM and (to a lesser degree) Shaman classes fail completely to be in accord with what was the intention at the time: they (and the rune priest/zealot classes) ARE namby-pampy healer classes that "heal and heal and heal" from the back lines and none of them can make a "significant attempt at beating the living snot out of somebody". They can make a significant attempt at DOTting up a lot of people so long as they are willing to let their own side die (ending up with a large damage score on the damage graph without accomplishing much but forcing an enemy healer to HOT up a lot of people gaining a lot of credit on the healing side) with a net negative contribution to a group/warband effort as an alternative to healing and healing and healing, but making a significant attempt at beating the living snot out of a single target of the same level and gear? Not hardly.

That said, with respect to the AM class, the biggest failure of them all is that the class' specific gimmick (every class has one), the thing intended to make them fun and iconic... can mostly be ignored and is not fun. Play a Warrior Priest - your gimmick of building up faith through melee to power your heals is felt from the get go - it becomes central to your playing style. You cannot play a WP effectively without trying to take advantage of it. It encourages you to find ways to master it. A Sword Masters stance changing likewise. You cannot play a Sword Master anything close to effectively without paying a constant close attention to your current stance. An AM (or Shaman), on the other hand?

Who the hell cares about High Magic? Your choice of casting damagedealing or healing spells will usually be determined solely by the situation you are in, not by the HM you've build up or any plan you have to utilize the HM, and there's no particular benefit to trying to build HM in one path in order to cast "something powerful in the other path". You are in the process of DoTting people up when a party member takes heavy damage => you cast him a heal. It may be a stronger heal if you've been DoTting a lot, but that does not in any way factor into the decision and you are unlikely to be thinking much about it. If you try to think much about it and pretend the HM mechanic really has meaning and that it is beneficial to to attempt to use it consciously and choose to build more destruction side magic in order to, for instance, cast an instant big heal, your target will most likely be dead before you cast the heal. Since just the GCD alone for a spell is greater than the time saved, it is guaranteed that waiting to build HM will perform worse - and that's before even considering that you might not have the AP to do both.

Moreover, attempting anything like what the class description suggests that the class is all about (see the class description, parts of which quoted below) results in poor performance since the mechanic does not in any way, shape, or form do what it is described as being designed to do.
Quote
Archmage Specialty

The Loremasters of Hoeth are capable of manipulating the winds of magic with a grace and subtlety that only comes with centuries of study. An Archmage does not waste the power he draws upon; instead they efficiently weave the winds of magic into destructive spells conserving a small amount of arcane energy with each spell they cast. The Archmage can then draw upon this reserve of power to weave the most difficult spells of High Magic capable of leaving even the most terribly wounded warrior hale and hardy with nary a scar to show for it.

Playing as a Archmage

An Archmage is a powerful caster both offensively and defensively. However they must strive to keep a balance between the powers they manipulate. Weaving only powerful healing or destructive spells will leave the Archmage tired and unable to assist his allies in their darkest hour. However by carefully applying force in critical places the Archmage can reserve a wellspring of magical energy that allows him to aid his allies when a normal mage would be all but spent.

The greatest joke remains the statement about how sticking to only one of the sides will leave us tired and unable to assist our allies in their darkest hour - not so, that happens when we do attempt to use both sides and hence are left without energy to help.

The current state of the archmage outside soloing is that it is a damn good ranged healbot/debuffer who belongs in the back healing and healing and healing when not debuffing - at least if you want to be of most aid to your group, since that's the part of it that the game mechanics, abilities, and tactics support.

...Not that I play it like that in scenarios, with the obvious result that my side performs worse in scenarios than it would otherwise, but that's because I'm an egotistical git who' often prefer to DoT somebody rather than HoTting somebody, who is not directly looking out for my life. And, of course, it is still a pretty fun class to solo with.

-----

Then again, perhaps the Archmage will receive an overhaul some day instead of staying a primary healbot, but it will require significantly more attention than it got in the beta, according to those who were in it (namely, approximately zero after it was cloned from the Shaman) - as a relic of which there is a funny bug (feature!) in the game right now which was reported many months ago in the beta, repeatedly raised together with the other issues, none of the issues ever acknowledged (and funnily enough, mostly being along the lines of what those who feel hoodwinkled with the AM complain about) - I present to you three screenshots that show without shadow of doubt the deep attention Mythic paid to making every class really unique and with a gimmick to give them iconic status:


EDIT: The forum software appears to screw up the thumbnail links by replacing the URL links with the IMG links for some/all people. Here are the direct URL links:
Archmage HM 3
Archmage HM 5
Shaman HM 5

Mythic was so busy solving all the important problems in the game that nobody found time to replace the orc faces when showing High Magic - and this was not acknowledged as a bug (probably due to nobody reading the AM bug reports).

...As if that was really needed to rub in that the Masters of the Winds of Magic were inferior to drugged out goblin shamans - we knew that the moment we read the spell and tactic lists for each. :P

-------------------

Aaaaaand, finally, my verdict on the path of Asuryan:
...It goes without saying that the tactics and spells in the Asuryan tree are overall pretty worthless.
At 3: Forked Lancing Talent. Equipped fully with damagedealing equipment (+INT), the total damage dealt in 2s with this at the level you get it by casting Radiant Lance and hitting two extra targets... is only slightly higher than the damage dealt by using Searing Touch for 2s (and Searing Touch is cheaper in AP too and isn't set back if you get hit). (And of course, if you use it while you have only one talent slot available, using it instead of Divine Fury means that your total damageoutput falls sigificantly since the majority of damage you deal comes through HoTs, even if you do hit three targets with each cast.) Radiant Lance scales better with +INT than Searing Touch so at high levels it can make sense - but this is the first thing you get in the Asuryan tree, and taking it is a huge mistake until very late levels.

At 5: Fury of Asuryan. Sounds awesome until you realize it is an instant attack at range 65 that deals low damage on a 30s cooldown. Pass.

At 7: Dispel Magic - a nice tactic removing enemy buffs in the socalled damage tree. Useful for a full debuffing Vaul build the dips into Asuryan.

At 9: Feel the Winds - a nice debuffing spell in the socalled damage tree. (However, since much of an AMs damage is through spirit, this will increase his damage if used properly). But... it is a slightly improved single-target version of the debuff that is automatically applied in a cone by the Storm of Chronos spell that is baseline, so... pass.

At 11: Increased Conductivity: a 20% damage buff!!! that carefully applies only to the weakest damagedealing spells the AM has (carefully including the others you can spec for, but none of the high dps spells). Pass. What possible generic damagedealing tactic could be worth swapping for this one?

At 13: Cleansing Flare. A ranged AOE attack doing negligible damage (no, 300-400 points at level 40 fully specced Asuryan with high INT is not impressive) BUT with an AOE knockback. This one is definitely worth taking - for the knockback.

At 15: Morale 4 channeled AOE ability. As other morale 4 abilities this is mostly for jokes and giggles. A channeled spell for a high priority target that breaks on any damage only increases the fun. Probably awesome when it does work, though. Who knows, it might do several hundred damage to those in the 30' AOE range!!!!


- In the end, the absurdity of the Archmage design has resulted in the weird situation that the single best way to increase Archmage damagedealing in multitarget fights at higher levels is to spec Vaul rather than Asuryan, since Vaul, at 11, gives Golden Aura tactic (Radiant Gaze, the highest dps DOT an Archmage has, gets AOE effect) - while, ironically, Asuryan has some of the better debuffing tactics). :D
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 07:37:07 PM by Peter »

Offline Warcold

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 11:42:00 PM »
Quite some post you got there...
I have the same things to struggle with. I have never ever even come close to the healing output of a RP (or WP for that matter). I am not totally specced for healing, but still, I doubt I will get close if I would. Highest healing I pumped out in a scenario is around 40k. RP's can get 100k with 'ease'. It may also be playing style, I dont know.
I also have a tough choice between Vaul and Asuryan. But also noticed [spell]Cleansing Flare[/spell] and playing a lot of TA now, I definately want that! Don't know how useful it will be once I cant play TA anymore though. But heck, I'll respec if it turns out less usefull after that. Got enough gold to burn anyway.

What it comes down to IMO is: do you want a fun char to play or do you want to max out your char for healbot (less fun in my perspective). If you want to have fun: offensive specced AM can do that for me. I had games where I put out 20k dam (and 10k healing or some), which was pretty satisfying for me.
One thing I hoped to find in this guild is having fun. Healbotting or else (i.e. nagnagnag, you dont heal enough) isnt much fun for me.

And dont understand me wrong, I try to keep ppl up as much as possible. But sometimes I'm just too busy having fun and casting destro to bits and other ppl die. Just like tanks and DPS are sometimes just too busy smashing skulls in after which they look around just to find some witchelf standing over some very dead healers.

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Offline Jarkko

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2008, 02:28:57 AM »
I don't think anybody in this guild is trying to force anybody to a healbot :)  A damagedealing AM does in my opinion supplement a warrior priest (who focus on healing), because the AM can focus on DPS and throw in a life-saving heal when the stream of healing from WP is not enough to keep somebody up.

Also, one thing you forget regarding the trees, the skills relevant to the tree in question become so much better by spending points in that tree. You don't have to take any of the skills there, spend the points in the tree and the skills get better and better. Sure, the Asyruan tree is now a joke regarding the extra skills, but the extra damage you get by spenind the points in the tree is not a joke :)

Still I do believe AM's are going to get some buffs and fixes soon. They were hitting hard at some point during CB, too hard actually. The toning just went too far :)

Offline Peter

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2008, 08:06:58 AM »
I don't think anybody in this guild is trying to force anybody to a healbot :)
Neither do I, and that's one of the great things about this guild. That, however, does not affect a rational evaluation of the current status and best uses of the class. (And, let's be honest, it is not exactly unknown to hear grumbling in guild chat about the usual "healers not healing, tanks not tanking, dps not dpsing appropriate targets" - we just tend to only apply it to outsiders :D)


Quote
Also, one thing you forget regarding the trees, the skills relevant to the tree in question become so much better by spending points in that tree.
I do not forget that - in fact, one of the best damagedealing setups is pretty much Vaul to 11 taking only the Golden Aura tactic combined with pouring the rest into Asuryan not taking any tactics or new spells (or taking only a few in order to get better debuffing and then investing less in Asuryan). No matter what you take, you'll still be considerably better at healing than damage dealing, but that is a separate issue.

It is just that the lineup of spells and tactics is so damned silly.

Remember the golden rule of giving players options:
  • Mandatory - generally not fun.. but players will forgive you due to inflating power levels.
  • Occasionally very useful, but mostly slightly useful - fun.. these are the things that make players actually choose.
  • Occasionally not useless - not fun.. except for a few masochists. They do not make up the majority of the player base.
  • Occasionally useful, but useful in a way that has nothing to do with what this class of options is generally about - seldom fun.
  • Worse than something the player is guaranteed to have and not stacking with it - take your designers out and shoot them.

I still love that video though - he's just so fun. :D

...and completely right regarding bright wizards. I cannot see the video without thinking of our friend Darn. :)

Offline Pythias

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2008, 09:31:01 AM »
Lot of valid and interesting ideas here. Also, there are many similar posts on archmage forums on warhammeralliance.

My POV:
- Archmages are forced into healing primarilly because there is usually low number of healers. In few scenarios, i was the sole healer (or with one more WP) doing over 100k healig.

- Our damage output even if fully specced / geared seems too low. We lack burst single target damage. Medium aoe damage incl. DoTs spamming is nice for puting pressure on opponent's healers but needs to be part of a larger picture.

- Almost noone speaks about debuffs because they don't show on score table. We can (if properly specced) decrease damage output by lets say 10% and increase damage taken by few per cent at the same time in a small area ... but ppl look at damage and healing done. When have i last seen fire cage in a scenario?

- High Magic concept is flawed and really needs an overhaul.

Offline Torgal

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2008, 09:58:13 AM »
I had a big ole' post written out, but it came out too preachy, and Pyth summed it all up better than I did anyway.

The one point I really wanted to make though, which is something I touched on in my initial post, is that archmagi are in no way inferior to rune priests where healing is concerned. Indeed when you spec into Funnel Essence (which the way I see it you would be crazy not to pick up as soon as humanly possible) you will be a potentially more powerful single target healer than any equally geared rune priest (our single target 'keep alive through burst' ability is sort of lacking really, similar to an Archmage's before Funnel Essence). Suggesting that there's any kind of disparity between the potential healing the two classes can do is disingenuous.

Beyonde here lies opinion, take it as it comes:

Personally I couldn't give two craps how much damage I deal, if you ask me that's a job for other classes who do it a whole lot better. I can understand Archmagi wanting to utilise the power of the hybrid aspect of their class, but the sad fact is (as has been already been covered in some detail) that it's not there and attempting to play like it is leads to ineffective utilisation of your class as it stands.

On the topic of specs, I can't imagine any archmage spec that doesn't start from this this base. From there you spec into whatever tree you want because you've got two amazing 'game changing' abilities right there. If you want damage or utility, spend your points in those trees - I would personally put the rest into Isha.

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Offline Peter

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2008, 11:53:21 AM »
I don't think of us significantly disagree about the actual performance and capabilities of the AM within the specs, merely with how much it is worth fighting against the current when the current is a blatant violation of everything promised, implied, and stated publically, but the current is one that is well known from other games and is one that, overall, works, is valuable - and that many players are basically happy with since it is familiar. :)

I do find it a crying shame how a grand vision of uniqueness was betrayed into mediocrity and, not WoW-style healing class (which they dissed), but pre-WoW healing class (which they had dissed even harder). That said, I also find it a crime against nature that the rational thing to do most of the time due to game mechanics is to use 1H+shield as a HE Swordmaster of Hoeth and play like a gimped dwarf, so let us just say that it is entirely possible that I am influenced by outside sources (the TT game and computer implementations thereof) with respect to what classes should actually do. :D

Offline Warcold

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2008, 10:24:16 PM »
Quote
I don't think anybody in this guild is trying to force anybody to a healbot
Was afraid it would seem like I ment this, but this is not what I had in mind, entirely...
Quote
(And, let's be honest, it is not exactly unknown to hear grumbling in guild chat about the usual "healers not healing, tanks not tanking, dps not dpsing appropriate targets" - we just tend to only apply it to outsiders  :D)
Not entirely, cause this IMHO does get the message through that healers should heal (etc.), also the guildies. IMO it states an opinion, rather than it being flaming PUGs. But maybe I'm too sensitive to these things.

Quote
attempting to play like it is leads to ineffective utilisation of your class as it stands.
so AM should healbot? this is exactly what I meant. I just dont care that much about playing the most effective char (take it as it comes  ;))

But talking of mastery builds
A more offensive AM would look something like this: http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=20#0:0:15:43136:5:32:25 although I would like 1 or 2 more points to fill in the gaps...
Aaaand... A heal-/buffbot I would build like this: http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=20#10:648:0:0:9:552:25

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Offline Jarkko

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Re: Archmagi and Rune Priests - the lowdown
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2008, 06:22:07 AM »
That said, I also find it a crime against nature that the rational thing to do most of the time due to game mechanics is to use 1H+shield as a HE Swordmaster of Hoeth and play like a gimped dwarf, so let us just say that it is entirely possible that I am influenced by outside sources (the TT game and computer implementations thereof) with respect to what classes should actually do. :D
I would say we have an adequate number of Ironbreakers in the guild. While Swordmasters can be great tanks, they really can't compete with an Ironbreaker if there is a choice :)  What we need (my personal view this, so don't shoot me) however is melee DPS (a bit short on White Lions as far as I can see). Swordmasters specced in Khaine or Vaul, wielding a Greatweapon, are a great boon to any group. Plus they can take that despicable sword&board from their back-pack if really really needed to :)