Sieging Tips

[Gunnarr]

1) Addons
There's 2 addons for MA'ing on curse atm: SG Assist and Choff Assist. Of these two, Choff assist seems to be simplest (I'm a big fan of simplicity!) but SG Assist seems to have more options - the ability to set a secondary assist among others.

2) Who should be assisted?
I'm going with ranged dps-classes, for best overview.

• Tanks will have to target enemy targets that shouldn't be focused on quite often - think of punting that black orc out of the squishy team.
• Healers are already juggling two targeting systems, and watching up to 24 healthbars at the same time. They'll likely be slower at switching targets
• Melee DPS can do it, but can easily have their overview blocked by big orc shields et cetera.
• Ranged DPS often have a bit of a quieter time choosing targets (unless they get chased by melee of course - but that goes for all dps classes basically.
• We could have an excess tank call the shots here. Just slap a big twohander on him and let him lead the dps.

3) Having "da plan"
should definitely work, as will simply training keep captures more often. Once everyone knows what's expected of him we'll have a good shot at steamrolling unorganised enemy groups. At the moment I think we're still in the learning phase - or actually, in a try-out phase.


Buffs
seem to be mostly party-based. With my RP I can only buff these in my party. The AM buff works the same, and so does the BW buff. I haven't so far seen buff-auras like paladin auras/totems etc. have in WoW, but I could simply have missed it.


So far, when I've lost a keep to destruction, it's unfortunately mostly been a matter of superior numbers muscling their way in. It seems unlikely that we'll be able to get that going reliably on Order side by chance. SO, we'll need to organize it. From what I've seen so far, I'm reasonably sure that with 2 war bands, you're almost guaranteed to cap keeps, if:

• The keep is assaulted by surprise, so no large group of Destro is already inside
• The assault is executed swiftly and the outer wall has falled before opposing players arrive
• The attackers make sure to focus on keeping reinforcements outside and unfortified
• While doing this, there is still enough attention to the assault on (mostly) NPC-guards to have it progress steadily.

I realize the below scenario is pretty much an ideal situation, but I do think it's somewhat realistic if everyone moves fast enough. I'm still puzzling over defended scenarios.

With two warbands at my disposal, I'd probably have all ~50 players focus on bringing down the main entrance first. Once in the courtyard, I'd assign most ranged dps to bringing down the inner door, while about one warband worth of people (many tanks, some healers and most melee dps) would simply watch both side-doors and the main gate for enemy reinforcements. Make sure there's healing for the people manning the ram, most of all when there's a few defenders with oil in the keep already. Man the ram with people that can't put out a lot of dps on the keep door by themselves (excess healers, tanks).
Once the inner door breaks down, have one balanced warband charge up to the keeplord room, while the second warband pulls in closer to the castle (either just outside or inside the bottom room should work - keeping people from charging up the ramp to the first floor should be doable even for half a warband) The charging warband should dispatch the few enemy players inside first, but the npcs should be picked up by one tank each and there should be a few healers dedicated to keeping them up (one healer for the tank on the lord, one healer per 2-3 tanks for the champs. With better gear, this could possibly be done by one healer, with one healer standing by.

[Debaser]

I think we may be considerably overestimating the average WBs organizational skills. Splitting groups, differing positions are all well and good but until we've practiced the standard charge together... we aren’t going anywhere.

I’ll be honest, I'm a terribly irritating armchair general. I feel someone’s got to do it however or nothing’s going to get done. While I couldn't stay the whole night tonight (so I'm not sure how the it turned out in the end), my heart sank at the start when we should have had that keep taken if only for the ability to run up a ramp together. 4-5 destro 15 Order and we just couldn't do it.

So my sieging tip. Breaking that line of Destro and NPCs, when you see the start of the charge follow up, all the way up, right up the ramp to the other side of the room, do your job, play your ass off and either you or the keep will fall. Standing at the bottom watching everyone move up first, tentatively poking your head up and watching people die, running back down when you start to take damage... Just... NO stop blocking the ramp/stairs and bugger off! Everyone goes up; everyone fights everyone wins or everyone dies! 

I'm all for a good bit of tactics, focus fire and all the add-ons in the world but if we can't advance "da plan" past 5 defenders and some stairs then we've no chance of trying something even a little complicated.

My apologies if this sounds a little ranty but I often see some awesome teamwork occuring in scenarios that dosn't seem to follow order out onto the feild, gets my goat a little.

[Jarkko]

Well, we got up in the end, we higher than originally planned   Sadly we didn't get the keep, but I think tonight provided very good practise runs. We actually nearly took the keep on the last attempt with just 9? players present, and that was because we actually were organised. Too bad the lord did reset. Still, some very good lessons learned I think

[Torgal]

my heart sank at the start when we should have had that keep taken if only for the ability to run up a ramp together. 4-5 destro 15 Order and we just couldn't do it.

I think we were nixed by master rune of adamant. Well, I know I was and I couldn't relog to fix it before we went up (perpetually in combat). It's hard to heal people when it takes 5 seconds to actually select anyone, so I was ok stood in a corner facing away from where it was laid, but as soon as I turned to run up the ramp my client just fell to a juddering halt. I know I wasn't the only one having troubles with it.

[Jeremiah]

I agree with the idea that we all burst into the chamber together to execute Da Plan and the more practise the better.  Ultimately I hope we can have ready made task forces who know their job, and (more importantly) know that others know theirs.  The keep lord takedown is basically a PvE excercise -  my experience in Wow (especially on the Vashj and Kaelthas fights) tells me that focus on a single task whilst completely relying on others to focus on theirs is the way to get the job done.  So, as DPS when I was engaged in a boss fight I just did DPS and ignored my health bar trusting completely the healers to do their job.  An example of this in a keep siege is - if you are assigned to the ram just stay on it even if you start taking hits.

So, perhaps if we draw up DA PLAN - starting with arrival in theatre and ending with keep lord death then we start practising it - the aim being that an unopposed takedown by a single warband should take less time than it takes the dest zerg to find out where we are and get over there.  If we can do that we can lead the destro in a merry dance - they cant be everywhere with the zerg. We can also boil it down to a limited number of activities which the WB leader can call and everyone know what they have to do.

[Jarkko]

Regarding the ram.

I think it would be a good thing if members from one party only took the ram. That way the party healer would be able to spam the group heal through oil and whatnot.

Speaking of oil, it is important the oil-cauldron is nuked down fast. All ranged classes and all cannons in range should focus on the cauldron until it is down. Unless there are four desto-players repairing the cauldron it will be destroyed quickly, and if there are four destro players repairing it it means the cauldron is not boiling (and those players are not doing something else that is nasty for us).

I still believe it would be best to slap all tanks to one party together with two healers (a WP and RP, or a WP and AM). It would get maximal effect from the WP's party heals (all the tanks are taking damage, right?), which are by far the most efficient heals in the arsenal, and also have access to the life-saver heals that AM and especially RP have. While it is nice to have the BW buffs on tanks and healers, it would be more efficient to have them affecting the DPS classes that actually pump out the damage needed to take down stuff.

Also, we need the WP's to agree before hand who buffs who with the STR buff. For example last night I can not be sure if I buffed somebody in vain, as I simply didn't have time to check if the melee guys already had the buff or not -> most likely I buffed people who already had the STR buff while others never recieved it.

[Warcold]

IMO breaking down doors isnt the real problem. Getting up the stairs is.

Wasnt there yesterday, but so far what I've seen is that the following tactic is advocated: CHARGE UP
Ok, let's take a look at that from my perspective:
- Tanks go first, healers next, ranged dps last, right? Ok. Especially with quite some destro upstairs the following thing happens: Tanks are blocked on top of stairs , charge jutters to a halt, everyone is stuck at upper ramp or lower platform (between the 2 ramps). Being on upper ramp, squishies are the perfect target for ranged dps. I've died quite a lot from those guys and to be honest, for the healers it is very hard to do their work effectively from there, including ressing. You cant see doodoo, cause camera gets very close to the toon, so I have to rely on the warband overview and you cant imagine how often I have had the following on my screen:

You can't see your target

- Other tactic: just run through to balcony and see where you go from there. What I have seen is that a few ppl make it there, run all around the balcony, with any luck in groups of 2 or 3. From healer perspective:

You can't see your target

Being better in pointing out problems than thinking out the solutions this will prolly not be the best solution, but I'll give it a try.
- IMO first tactic just doesnt work, because of the different lvls (in height), healers cant see their targets and thus are nearly worthless. So 2nd tactic may be way to go, but only if the instructions go beyond 'running to the balcony'. So mebbe: take first exit and turn left (or right, but choose ONE) and stick at first corner.
Hopefully 5-8 ppl of the warband make it through and the next phase will have to start: a slow process of ressing ppl to the balcony. Tanks go in a bit to keep ppl at bay. Healer stands in door opening (they have to be able to look around the corner).
An AM res takes 10 secs (sometimes less), so this is slow going. Ppl have to patiently wait their turns. (and tanks will have to take quite some punishment, holding off destro for about 15 secs). What also may help is for ppl who are on 2nd floor say that they are there, so healer knows who to heal. (you can't see..., remember?)
Ppl on stairs should say they are on stairs, so healers below can res them (maybe keep a party in reserve below?)
It also might be an idea to coordinate the ressing through TS (we need more ppl on TS!) so the ressing upstairs can go in sync with ressing downstairs. With the party(s) below giving  a divertion. Once the majority of ppl is up and running give a go for a two fronts attack.


Ok, this is my 2 cents, maybe a bit too much details, maybe off here and there. 'd Like to hear what you think.

[Warcold]

nice movie prae 

[Jarkko]

Excellent post Warcold. However, you are aware that AoE heals don't need line of sight, right? As long as you are within 150 feet, be it upstairs, downstairs or same level, behind a wall or in plain sight, you are healed. Which is the reason I am trying to advocate for smacking the tanks together with WP + another healer. The WP can pump out his AoE heals every 3 seconds practically indefinitely when there are many targets to Smite, if just staying alive himself (the problem is that the AoE heals generate aggro like nothing, both amongst PvE targets and especially PvP targets...), and the WP has the armour sustain the damage. Things go to hell when one of the tanks croak (most likely because his healer lost LOS to the tank) and the WP is next to go down (and after that the other healers) and there is no way to keep the other tanks up.

For example last night Vacuum was not in my group and he was tanking the hero. Vacuum was not in my group, but as I saw him lose health fast (again, most likely because his healers simply didn't have LOS to him), I tried to heal him, which saw me lose all RF fast (the other heals are not even close as RF efficient as ToD, and there I was without RF watching all the tanks (and a second later myself) croak.

Now if the tanks were in same party with the WP spamming ToD, it would basically mean a steady stream of healing to all tanks. It would allow the tanks to focus on holding aggro on targets (hopefully moving them away from the stairs (both up and down!) so that people are not colliding with their own tanks), which would allow more people run up the stairs so that the other healers would be able to add with their healing and especially so that DPS people would be able to actually do their thing. Because no matter how you look at it, healing and tanking are not good enough, you *need* the DPS people to actually take down the bad guys.


EDIT: The acronyms I used:
LOS = Line of Sight
RF = Righteos Fury (the "mana" WP uses to cast heals, shields, decurses and resurrections)
ToD = [spell]Touch of the Divine[/spell]

[Pythias]

However, you are aware that AoE heals don't need line of sight, right? As long as you are within 150 feet, be it upstairs, downstairs or same level, behind a wall or in plain sight, you are healed.

Hmm ... you sure? Bcs in that case, put together 2 groups with healers and tanks, let tanks and WPs charge up and have all ranged healers stand on the ground floor spamming group heals...

@Warcold: balcony vs charge up
Well, balcony is a good idea if you don't have destro around, only NPCs. Otherwise, you first need to fight your way through the destro group blocking the top of stairs. That is the main problem. Even if few ppl manage to get to the balcony, destro will take care of them swiftly, before any rezzing can take place. With destro blocking top of stairs, you need somehow to blast a hole into their wall so that as many as possible ppl get to the upper floor, with tanks and heavy dps getting priority. Destro will, most probably, try to run back to close the gap immediately. Use aoe to bring da pain to the overcrowded area at the top of stairs. This could work in theory...

I believe keeps are made on purpose so that a relatively small group (lets say one warbad) can defend the keep practically against any number of attackers. Just keep the bottleneck blocked.

[Jarkko]

However, you are aware that AoE heals don't need line of sight, right? As long as you are within 150 feet, be it upstairs, downstairs or same level, behind a wall or in plain sight, you are healed.

Hmm ... you sure? Bcs in that case, put together 2 groups with healers and tanks, let tanks and WPs charge up and have all ranged healers stand on the ground floor spamming group heals...

Yes I am sure

I noticed earlier that my ToD did heal people downstairs when I was using it upstairs in the keep-lord room.

Yesterday Beosvir and Daethoron got (by a Magus) sucked through the door inside the keep, me and Torgal rushed to the door and spammed AoE heal (and I did hit Smite (which also goes through obstacles) as fast as possible to regenerate RF). Eventually I too was sucked in through the door (gotta love those Maguses :p) and continued to heal inside, while Torgal continued healing from the outside.

Eventually the Destruction noticed the two tanks had a healer with them, and Torgal was not able to keep me up when they focused me to death, and after that Beosvir and Daethoron were toast pretty fast.

Later, in the keep, I did hide behind the wall and spammed ToD and Smite, and according to the logs I was healing people and damaging the baddies, even though I didn't have LOS to anybody.

Even later I fell through the stairs from the balcony above the lord, was stuck and couldn't move or even see anything. Yet again I was able to spam ToD and Smite from there.

[Warcold]

I'm not so sure about LOS and AoE heal either. We should try that out sometime. And besides, I dont really use groupheal that much, as most of the time, there is a far bigger need of spikehealing. AM groupheal also does about 540 healing (3s cast, no cooldown), but that is at lvl 40. At my lvl, healing is 250-ish (so 80 HPS). That's just not enough to keep the tanks up I think.
The things I use most are HoT spells [spell]Lambent Aura[/spell] and [spell]Healing Energy[/spell], of which the first is instant cast, so i can spam it on different players fast.
For spikehealing i use [spell]Boon of Hysh[/spell] (SLOW) and, if available, Morale: [spell]Divine Favor[/spell].

If you are right, and 4 out of 6 ppl would be upstairs taking damage, and I can heal them from a distance I would do 320 HPS, which would be worthwhile, but I truely doubt it.

But back to tactics: If going to the balcony doesnt work the only option I see would be to knock destro towards middle of room. Dont have paint handy, but ill try to draw it in ASCI:

|
|
|
|

|
|   ^    ^
|   |     |   _______
|__2___1_|_|_|_|___

So tanks charge up, then hugging the wall and facing the room, Tank 1 knocks first load of destro towards middle of room (1), next, 2nd tank, also hugging the wall, KBs a bit farther, towards middle of room (2).
Dont know if this will work, or if this is doable, but this way you will have a nice spot for ppl to advance and knockbacks will only fling you in the wall and not down the stairs again.

Utopia??


[edit]hmm, you sure, eh? I never saw it happen, but will try it out again...
anyway, if so, i dont see reason for healers to go up, they should say downstairs and DPS should follow the tanks[/edit]

[Torgal]

I'm not so sure about LOS and AoE heal either.

It is absolutely the case, and the keep door example above illustrates it perfectly and certainly also amusingly. Group heals check only range, not LOS. I've hidden behind many a rock in scenarios and spammed the group heal to keep people up.

Your point about the lower HPS is valid though, it is fairly inefficient to keep single targets up with group targeted heals. It's not so bad though, just tends to lead to a bit of AP starvation if you're constantly casting. It's a shame that you can't use the old favourite cast/cancel healing method if you want to regen AP.

Many archmage and rune priest spells are entirely analagous (I have all those spell you listed, just with different names - it's curious how healers in this game are so homogenous given how diverse dps classes can be. Lack of imagination, or conscious balancing decision?), and so far as my experience extends warrior priests also share some analogues. I tend to lean heavily on the instant cast HoT to keep up HPS aswell, I find the 1s cast spell to be fairly inefficient due to it's high AP cost, and the 3s direct heal is just painful to cast in all but the most tranquil situations. Besides the instant HoT, my favourite spells are the AOE ones.

[Warcold]

The 1 sec spell has the advantage that it heals a nice ammount right at the beginning. When someone is below 25% and still taking damage, I use it to give him a relative quick little boost up and it just can be a lifesaver.

[Gunnarr]

I usually try to stack both hots myself, though the 1s cast one is rather painful.
If someone is taking heavy damage I often use the third hot as well (the one that jumps after having healed) though it heals for negligible amounts

Back to topic:
I'm doubtful whether only group heals will be enough to keep people up vs a hero level character, 4 champions plus whatever destruction is inside. It's worth a shot though!
An alternative may be to have the healers charge up the second flight of stairs (with a tank or a few dps leading the way to chase off the destro ranged dps) and hole up above the destruction zerg, with a 1-2 tanks at the bottom off the ramp to the second floor to keep out destro melee.