Author Topic: Sieging Tips  (Read 7766 times)

Offline Mangala

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Sieging Tips
« on: September 24, 2008, 09:19:44 PM »
So after tonights fun what have we learned, what can we learn and anything else people feel we need to know to keep on enjoying these?

Personally I learned to lower my graphics to fastest framerate setting for the evening, still a little laggy, but thats a combination of zone load on the server and playing over wireless ;)

Oh and that IB's using HtL really do rock when the group largely stays behind them. That is until the otherside primary you until dead!
"May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk."


Offline Axenar

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2008, 07:30:39 AM »
Take more siege weapons I reckon. My biggest issue was all the guys on the battlements either being just out of range or being out of line of sight when I was in range. Made working as an engineer a bit hard. Mostly ended up killing the spawns that kept appearing outside. Maybe if I got my grubby mits on a cannon or too I'd be sorted. :)

Offline Angelor

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2008, 08:58:12 AM »
The 2 real bottlenecks are the doorway and the stairs- when these are broken the keep falls. Organising the charge through these points is the hard part.

Offline Caradir

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2008, 11:35:11 AM »
if you are in control of  a siege engine dont be afraid to exit firing mode to repair if damaged it does make you a target then but makes your equipment last longer.

we have siege abilities, RPs increase toughness of siege engines by 10% if i recall correctly , use them.
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Offline Axenar

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2008, 01:37:43 PM »
Never had one myself just noticed we seemed to lose both after a while and they werent replaced.

Just think though these are the "easy" keeps with just the one gate, later on dunno if it's tier 3 they get an outer wall as well that you have to get past first.

Still good fun and some thing I was keen to see in game.

I never PvP'd much in the other MMO's I played but in this game it just seems so natural and fun. Almost to the point of being more addictive than doing quests. Maybe it's the bolster thing and the fact you can do it from day one has helped.


Offline Mangala

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2008, 07:12:01 AM »
Keep in range of your Standard Bearer.

Bring siege engines appropriate to the task at hand: Cannon for Offence, Rams for the Doors, Oil for Defence;

For the actual Lord assault:
Quote
What worked for us in this small groups is to run to the balcony. Tanks first healer after them. No heals at this point. Try to loose them or die. Then everyone rez so you can start out on the balcony without the reset border on the stairway. Pull champs (single warriorpriest same level should be able to tank/kill it). Then go for the hero.
"May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk."


Offline Rubino

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2008, 09:02:25 AM »
Spent most of yesterday defending a keep in the Shadowlands - mostly against small groups that weren't too hard to deal with for a handful of players.

We had 2 large groups of around 20-40 blood sucking destruction scum attack first in the morning then again later in the evening.
We had plenty of siege eq to defend with and a decent engineer on hand to man the cannons.  We kept the oil flowing until the idea penetrated their thick skills to attack the cauldron above the gate - with only a handful of people defending it was hard to keep things repaired until reinforcements arrived.  Messengers were dispatched while we kept them at bay and help arrived before the main gate was taken.  A handful stayed on the ground floor, elven archers on the stairwell raining blows from above before most retreated to the first floor to take up positions on and around the stairwells.

We found it handy to keep the oil falling even when the gate had been breached - a few retreating to heal were spirited back to their camps swiftly - others were damaged enough to delay an attack giving us a brief respite.

Gunners placed their cannons on ledges above the lower-stairwell which helped a lot in keeping the healers and ranged support at bay - making it hard for their tanks to break through without support.  Those that did ran for the outer wall allowing them to pick off small groups that ran after them.  Keeping a few small groups at both entrances to the outer wall allowed them to pin the tank between them and take them out in quick time.  We kept people on the guns - so any incoming support they had either met a swift death or were dealt enough dmg to approach with caution.  After 15 mins or so the keep door reset and those inside were trapped.  Again the oil helped keep those attempting to take the door again from the outside.  The number of attackers inside the keep dwindled and they attempted to break the keep door from the inside to allow reinforcements to assist.  Their focus now shifted we were able to slip down the stairwell and smear the inside of the door with their bile.

Use the npc's if you're in a small group - lure the hostiles out and then assist them - you'll survive, they won't and you'll be around to stop the keep falling.
If somebody makes it to the outer wall- it's better to defend the stairwell if you don't have enough support.  You can take out the hovering hostile when they come into view.  Small groups pinning them from both side is more effective than a couple of solos chasing.  If they die you have less defenders against the mob.
You can hover at the top of the stairwell down and deal dmg pretty effectively and it stops the entrance to the stairwell down from getting congested - allowing your tank to work more effectively.

Don't let your guns go unmanned if you can help it and let people know how to repair them.  If the defending eq is under atk it's going to take more than 1 person to repair them.  Don't be afraid to ask for help or to let people know.
If you like playing with keeps - keep siege eq handy - I always have 2 items of all 3 types in my inv - something's always gonna break and having a spare can save the day.

One last tip - if you pop your clogs and rush back to help - keep your ear against the back-door before entering.  If the lower lvl is swarming with vermin - you won't last long on entering - better to wait or ask for a diversion.  Getting yourself killed won't help and it saves the long run back.

We managed to maintain control of the keep both times and in each case we were out-numbered and out-leveled! :)



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Offline Mangala

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2008, 08:05:03 AM »
We need to find ways to practice attacks with little or no destro interference, or at least keep working together as a unit for these things. After all this game is about open warfare and sieges all meaning something - in all tiers as they all help the stability of your T4 keeps and such - not repeated TA over and over again.

For example lastnight we seemed to work together most of the night, but still had a near headless quality at times. Probably down to the the odd pug and lack of all of us on voice - we dont bite honest!!! Defence using the npcs as an aid (fair play I know, its the lords keep and he doesnt want to loose it either!) on the ramp is a morale breaker for some, that feeling of stalemate and such, but we have to keep pushing when at that stage. We gave it a great attempt lastnight in Thuckmuck keep down in the badlands, but that didnt last as not everyone in the WB followed us right into the fray despite it being screamed in /wa before we did it.

Either way whatever we can learn from continued keep sieges can only make us better, more so as more people pass into t3 and those of us there level higher in it too.

"May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk."


Offline Pythias

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2008, 10:50:41 AM »
IMO we did fairly well yesterday, the last attempt to push up the stairs in Badlands keep was quite organised. Few things i'd say may help:
1) Initial momentum
If we're going to capture objectives in the rvr zone, let's split WB into 2 groups and cap them simultaneously. Leave one party to guard each objective and the rest move on to the keep (if enough ppl).

2) Blocking reinforcements
Depending on the keep, it may be near impossible to guart the outer wall. Break the outer door as quickly as possible. Once in the inner yard, split wb to guard back/side entrance to the and man the ram. Put 2 ppl on the top of the outer walls to warn about incoming.

3) Re-group at the ground level
Once you're inside, it's not necessary to hurry up. Just get all ppl inside and block doors to cut all reinforcements. I was thinking about group setup which maximised grp healing, e.g. 3 tanks and 3 (different) healers in a grp. With 2 such groups, you have realistic chance to charge up in an organised way and survive, with healers spamming group heals. Start with knockbacks and aoe debuffs.

Offline Jarkko

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2008, 12:19:45 PM »
We need experience at working together, and we need more people on TS (me included), if not speaking then at least listening. Also, at least I need still more experience, I still for example revert to mouse-clicking when I am tired and in a hectic sitation (I use key-bindings normally and use mouse for targetting and turning, but for some damn reason I forget all that when I have to focus on staying awake...).

One thing to consider for the future might be to play around a bit more with the party compositions. Last night we had pretty much all parties with a tank, a DPS class, a melee healer and a ranged healers. Meaning the group was all spread out, some not even in the same floor.

Now the problem with that is the nature of group healing in WAR, ie the most efficient healing (at least from the WP point of view :) ). You heal *party* members around you, and those outside circle (or not in the party) need to be healed individually.

Could it be possible in the future to stack the tanks plus melee DPS + 1-2 warrior priest to the group going upstairs, and likewise stack tanks plus WP in the group staying in the stairs to fend off, and have the ranged DPS + ranged healers stacked together (so the ranged healers can use their AoE heals to heal people around them)? As it was I was trying to run around like mad, trying to stand as close as possible to as many of my party to get maximal effort of ToD, while also trying to hit as many nasties as possible with Smite, while also trying to give the strength-buff to as many tanks as possible. When destro made the rush in, it took a long time for me to comprehend what the heck was going on (lots of more red text on my screen :P).
In case you are interested of my confused rushing back and forth, I slapped together a short video of the last phase of the final attempt (when we actually got upstairs in force and nearly got the lord down before destro reinforcements arrived). It's about 44 megs big, so it's not a small file to download, but I wanted to keep the resolution decently good.
http://www.yopost.com/downloadfile.php?download=svGpgXXgAJDpzwZ



An interesting thing I found out yesterday: At the keep door you can use Smite right through the door. At the last door I was standing in front of the door and Smiting while keeping heals up all the time. Sadly I was a bit too slow a couple times when I got boiling oil on my neck exactly at the same time when the guards rushed out, really need to move quicker outtaheck from there then...

Offline Jeremiah

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2008, 07:08:35 PM »
I found out last night that a WH is unbelievably squishy when it comes to the stair fight - it is nigh on impossible for me to make any contribution to that.  The best I can do is try and run in build up accusations by hit and run and then try and pop a DOT on.  Anything else and I am frozen on the spot and killed in seconds.  Our pick lock skill is apparently broken, but when it is fixed I could imagine trying to co-ordinate the door rush with a postern door rush by the WHs to kill healers.  Apart from that it feels very much like a spare wheel atm being a WH in a seige with our little potato guns firing snap-shot and no way to flank.

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2008, 07:25:32 PM »
The main thing we'll need to decide is what the best place to fight is on the top level. It will need to be somewhere where the boss won't run because of his short leash, but which will hopefully allow our ranged guys to fire into enemy lines and build enough pressure to take down enemy players.

I can think of two locations:
- On the balcony, we've had some limited success doing that before
- On the floor ABOVE the keep lord, I think he won't follow there, yet it is possible to fire down into the keep lord room from the top level. Also there are some vendor npcs there so destro may be unwilling to allow them to be killed off.

Imho fighting inside the keep lord room like we did yesterday is rather suicidal. Everyone will be bunched up, meaning, from a  healer perspective:
- That you'll be waaaay too close to their WEs, marauders and other scary high-spike damage dealers, in order to retain a LOS on the tanks and your other melee buddies
- That it'll be such a mess of bunched up people that friendly tanks and "defensive dps" will not be able to identify the occasions where you are being singled out by enemy melee in time.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 07:27:29 PM by Gunnarr »
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Offline Jarkko

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2008, 08:58:50 PM »
Hmmm.. Bloody hell, I could have been ready to swear Touch of the Divine have 30 feet range. At least I am pretty sure Khaine's Embrace had 30 feet range in beta.

Now when I look at the tooltips, I notice the say 150 feet  :o  In essence, I have been running around like mad for no reason what so ever  :-[

Offline Debaser

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2008, 08:24:51 AM »

I can think of two locations:
- On the balcony, we've had some limited success doing that before
- On the floor ABOVE the keep lord, I think he won't follow there, yet it is possible to fire down into the keep lord room from the top level. Also there are some vendor npcs there so destro may be unwilling to allow them to be killed off.


Your right, we should be trying those locations out.

However, firstly if we're playing against any clued in destro team then their healers won't move and inch from the NPCs and they’ll send in the tanks to start KBing us back down quickly splitting us up. Secondly, we still have to get everyone up through the worst bottleneck of the keep. With IBs on the front line spamming knockbacks we probably could get the best part of a force through, however it's still going to be impossible to move into one of those positions without losing a great deal of people.

The only way to beat that bottleneck as far as I'm concerned is to kill off and block off as many as possible as soon as the door goes down. That means having everyone at the door ready to charge in en mass moving straight to the stairway, ensuring that no one on the ground floor and from the postern door make it up those stairs. Then as quickly as possible we need to organize while we're still strong and push up into their remaining forces and play our asses off.

If we let an entire WB set up at the top of those stairs we have little to no chance of breaking through. It may even be better to set up on the ground floor and play a game of attrition should that happen, catching their tanks with KBs and taking them down while blocking any reinforcements from the back door.

tldr? sal about the initial push.

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Offline Rubino

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Re: Sieging Tips
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2008, 09:18:27 AM »
Personally it would be helpful to define a few things:
1) Addins people should use for assist, chat windows, etc - if we're using the same things then it's easier for everybody to be coordinated.  I know I don't have an optimum setup and with the body of knowledge we have for this - it would be handy for something to be added to the forums.
2) Who should be assisted in the party - with lots of bodies rushing about it's sometimes hard to see the wood for the trees.
3) It's not often I see people calling targets or defining a strategy - direction and strategy will win the objective.  In larger parties it'll make the difference.  It might be good if the healer called the shots - it could easier for them to have a clearer overview.  The guy in in front usually has other things on his mind.
 
I'm not sure we're using Warbands/Parties well.  Shouldn't the leader of the warband define the direction and hand objectives down to the parties for them to execute?
I don't know that much about how abilities span warbands/parties/groups - are we using them effectively?

I've spent more time defending keeps than attacking - mostly the attackers spearhead the first level with a tank and ranged support.  It always fails if the defenders have ranged people at the top opening (opposite the entrance to the stairwell) and a tank (or a few who can take dmg) blocking the entrance.  The attackers almost always diffuse their dps with multiple targets; they always rush around, rarely taking their time to get an overview of the situation and their targets.  The only time that it's come close are when they have taken a breath and worked together.

If you take out the people covering the top of the stairwell first - you reduce their dmg output.  If you assign one group this task - and then have 2 spearhead groups with the aim of getting to the outer ring of the first level and then taking up positions on the defending siege points.  Pick one as a rally point and drop the guild flag.  They can then defend against any following and then come around to attack from the side openings.  Attacking from the side openings allows support to climb the stairwell and attack - effectively spliting the focus of the defenders 3 ways.

The stairwell is a bottleneck (as it should be :)) - so things would need to be coordinated to stop people blocking each other.

Scenarios are the best place to practice - when the same mistakes are made it ends up being a blood bath.  It ends up being just about brawn rather than a team.



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