Author Topic: Ma'adim: Direction?  (Read 22965 times)

Offline peo

  • MAADI
  • The Pantheon
  • ***
  • Posts: 1891
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2009, 01:32:10 PM »
Have to say that trying to "take" populated space isn't something I think we would be able to do initially.

The risk of getting involved in a war with bob or goon as the first thing you do in 0.0 must be rather futile. Either of those alliances will steamroll any fledgling alliance without breaking a sweat (at least I think so...) and even if explosions are pretty I don't think it is worth it for the no reward which could come from it.
A established smaller alliance is more likely to be a better start and when the new areas open up (hopefully possible to claim) it will be possible to expand there and make that alliance into something more than what it is currently.

Offline Rubino

  • Friends
  • The Pantheon
  • **
  • Posts: 1172
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2009, 01:36:08 PM »
This is where relationships come into play - if one of them is supporting you - then you minimise the risk.
I don't think Bob & Goon bang heads directly too much nowadays - they do it mostly via their alliances with the other alliances :)

FYI: Only alliances can claim SOV of 0.0 space.

The alliance War is suggesting might be thinking of expanding into the 0.0 space that will be opened as part of the Marth 10th expansion. The only issue is that currently it's a big unknown - I'm not even sure you'll be able to gain sov in that space (as is currently the case in some of the Drone regions).  Anybody have any intel?

Edit:
Finding wormholes will require a new scanner and modules (possibly also probes)
New skills required
Wormholes will also be opened up via missions
The new zones will be part of new reactions coming in the expansion for T3 - which suggests moon mining.
Possibly the introduction of new racial NPC's based on existing races in eve - some people are suggesting Jovian.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 03:32:50 PM by Rubino »



Wii Console: 8123-9969-5753-1865

Offline vacuum

  • Friends
  • Cogniscenti
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • half man, half biscuit
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2009, 11:37:54 PM »
I don't think Bob & Goon bang heads directly too much nowadays - they do it mostly via their alliances with the other alliances :)


Don't go BoB. Since you're in the North - Ally with someone in the Northern Coalition (Morsus Mihi etc). BoB call their allies 'pets'. Say no more.
But I would say that, I'm a Goon. That said, TCF are pretty cool, and have a huge amount of space up there.

Quote
FYI: Only alliances can claim SOV of 0.0 space.

Regarding the cost; I would say your fighting fund needs to be about 10bn per system you're looking to take.
(Think tower costs, strontium, replacement capships etc etc).

Offline Warcold

  • MAADI
  • League of Extraordinary Gentleman
  • ***
  • Posts: 3670
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2009, 12:00:11 AM »
I'll read your extensive post(s) later, but I ran into this concerning UFA, looks like they are going to hit rough times:

Quote
IDLE EMPIRE Repels UFA Starbase Attack
reported by: ISD Amaari Yolkia | 2009.01.15 23:55:06

W-3BSU - An assault on IDLE EMPIRE installations ended in three capital losses for the United Freemen Alliance earlier this week. The aim of the UFA operation had been part of a wider strategy to maintain control over the region of Geminate, along with their allies KIA Alliance.


A small number of systems in the region have been under IDLE sovereignty for 2 weeks; it was only early this week that their presence has drawn UFA's attention. Rowlandos, head of IDLE, denies UFA or KIA had any right over the systems: "it was unclaimed, to claim space you [have to] put [a] sovereignty claim on it."

The successful defence of their starbase was the result of a joint operation with their allies, Gay4Life and Eternal Rapture. Rowlandos went on to comment that they were given no warning before the attack, and that they were not the aggressors: "they started it, they shot first."

Gendril, XO of the United Freemen Alliance, now believes that the situation will continue to worsen as allies of IDLE become involved: "It seems some of their friends have declared war on us, so it seems what could have been a minor issue will escalate."
'Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future.'

'We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection.
The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.'


http://warthunder.com/en/registration?r=userinvite_3240166

Offline Rubino

  • Friends
  • The Pantheon
  • **
  • Posts: 1172
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2009, 12:20:32 AM »
Aye - they're looking to expand into the rest of Geminate and secure the region.
As you grow you need to expand - there are only finite resources.  To expand means taking the space they own using force.  Sometimes a plan works (with good intel & management more often than not) - sometimes it doesn't.

Conflict (pvp) is built into eve from the foundations - the only safe occupations are scamming and stealing salvage :)

Thanks for the update on the costs vac - so to take over new space would be 10b split between the corps in the alliance.
Assuming a small number of corps (you don't want too many as you'll be starting small and actually using the space by ratting/mining you'll have conflict) - say 4 or 5 - then you're looking at 2 - 2.5b per corp/system.
When you own a region then you can start looking to bring in more corps into the alliance.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 12:25:25 AM by Rubino »



Wii Console: 8123-9969-5753-1865

Offline vacuum

  • Friends
  • Cogniscenti
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • half man, half biscuit
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2009, 12:26:24 AM »
I'll read your extensive post(s) later, but I ran into this concerning UFA, looks like they are going to hit rough times:

Don't believe everything you read ...

Offline peo

  • MAADI
  • The Pantheon
  • ***
  • Posts: 1891
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2009, 07:48:34 AM »
This is where relationships come into play - if one of them is supporting you - then you minimise the risk.
I don't think Bob & Goon bang heads directly too much nowadays - they do it mostly via their alliances with the other alliances :)

FYI: Only alliances can claim SOV of 0.0 space.

The alliance War is suggesting might be thinking of expanding into the 0.0 space that will be opened as part of the Marth 10th expansion. The only issue is that currently it's a big unknown - I'm not even sure you'll be able to gain sov in that space (as is currently the case in some of the Drone regions).  Anybody have any intel?


I know alliances are the only ones that can claim space :)
What I mean with "we" is the alliance we end up in.

As for bob and goons not going at it themselves mean they support their allies against aggression right?
So attacking one of their allies (which ever it might be and personally I don't fancy being anyones pet haha) will bring you into conflict with them and for a new alliance trying to dislodge that kind of firepower must be nigh on impossible.

That UFA is in conflict doesn't mean to much imo, it might acctually mean we would have a better chance of getting into the alliance since they will need pilots and resources and even if we are quite few I suspect every bit counts. If nothing else we do bring a reasonably solid industrial base which is from what I understand cap capable?

Offline Rubino

  • Friends
  • The Pantheon
  • **
  • Posts: 1172
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2009, 09:37:34 AM »
The first Orca is on the market, the second is waiting for some BPO's to be copied but it's about ready to cook.
The good thing about the Orca is that the parts are the same to make the other cap ships.  While we don't have all the BPO's yet - we're getting there and the sales will help generate the income to buy them.

We have a solid group of guys - and from the polls on the fourms - most want to PvP in some way.
While we are small - we are versitile and from the info they have posted - we meet their requirements for joining up both in terms of combat and industry (they realise they need both).

The other alliance mentioned is also a possibility - the main reason I posted about what it means to claim hostile space (and the post got a little longer than I anticipated - sorry) wasn't to put a damper on it - but just to share the experiences of earlier times.  The info and lessons I learned may be a little old - so I maybe off - I'm happy to stand corrected.  Vac has far more recent experience of Eve "trench" warfare.  I'd just rather we go in with our eyes open and understanding to buffer the experience we lack.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 09:42:47 AM by Rubino »



Wii Console: 8123-9969-5753-1865

Offline peo

  • MAADI
  • The Pantheon
  • ***
  • Posts: 1891
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2009, 09:59:15 AM »
The first Orca is on the market, the second is waiting for some BPO's to be copied but it's about ready to cook.
The good thing about the Orca is that the parts are the same to make the other cap ships.  While we don't have all the BPO's yet - we're getting there and the sales will help generate the income to buy them.

We have a solid group of guys - and from the polls on the fourms - most want to PvP in some way.
While we are small - we are versitile and from the info they have posted - we meet their requirements for joining up both in terms of combat and industry (they realise they need both).

The other alliance mentioned is also a possibility - the main reason I posted about what it means to claim hostile space (and the post got a little longer than I anticipated - sorry) wasn't to put a damper on it - but just to share the experiences of earlier times.  The info and lessons I learned may be a little old - so I maybe off - I'm happy to stand corrected.  Vac has far more recent experience of Eve "trench" warfare.  I'd just rather we go in with our eyes open and understanding to buffer the experience we lack.

I agree.

Either way we need to look at the logistics as well. Let say we join a currently non-sov holding alliance. That means we would initially still be reliant on the market to get minerals to build caps (the ones not accessible in the areas we are currently in, zydrine?? etc) but if joining a already holding alliance it opens up the possibility to get the minerals "safely" from the start which should boost the production capacity by a bit or at the very least profits from production.

I don't know which is best in the long run to be honest. But as a start it seems easier to go with an already established smaller alliance than a new one.

Offline Rubino

  • Friends
  • The Pantheon
  • **
  • Posts: 1172
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2009, 10:47:41 AM »
Generally building in non-sov space isn't an option.  Miinerals can be scarce and you need BP's in the POS to make the items (BPC's are ok but you do spend time moving between empire/0.0 to ferry the items needed for production).  You also need sov to build certain types of Capital ships - let alone the risk involved building when the POS is likely to be attacked.  Attacking the POS while it's building/researching will stop the production cycle.  The time to actually make the ship varies between 1 and 3 weeks for the common Capitals.  You also need a certain type of POS Ship Array - which gives away the purpose to any cloaky ship that scouts out the POS (warping while cloaked FTW).

When a POS is attacked - the sequence of events is:
  • Nothing is targetable inside the shield except the shields (by targetting the tower)
  • Directors (not sure about members) get an evemail when the attack starts
  • The shields buffer the attack until they run out - defenders can defend the tower from inside the shields.  The shields can be remote repped (shield transfer rep) - although I can't remember if this is possible only outside the sheilds.
  • The POS goes into reinforced mode (and starts consuming a fuel called Strontium) - consuming the stront at x/hour (determined by the tower size).  The Med POS we have up in empire consumes 200 Stront/Hour when in reinforced mode.  The main issue with Strontium is the size - it's bulky at 3 m3
  • I'm not sure but I think it might be possible to load more stront when the tower is in this mode
  • When the stront is consumed (there's a timer accessible but I can't remember where telling you how long it will be in reinforced for) - if the attackers return then they can destroy the tower.  Defenders can repair (remote shield rep) and defend the tower

If the tower is destroyed then the attackers get to loot the spoils - fuel, ships, ammo, POS modules.  If you're attacking and lucky the POS will run out of fuel generally.  In which case you're able to steal the tower and the POS modules.  It doesn't happen often but it is very nice when it does.

If you're in hostile space (ie you don't have sov) - you won't be mining/manufacturing in that space - if you're lucky some ratting (NPC's) but mostly lots of waiting (orbiting gates & stations) and some PvP.  It can often be a trial of patience - not that there aren't fun parts - dealing with incoming hostiles, roaming for targets, scanning out safe-spots - at times it can be very exciting.

I've outlined some of the timelines involved in an earlier post with hostile space but you'll generally won't be making profit until a period of time (approx equiv to the time it took to take the space) after you have sov.  It's only a finger in the air - but covers things like the initial outlay of ships, POS's, etc

« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 11:21:27 AM by Rubino »



Wii Console: 8123-9969-5753-1865

Offline peo

  • MAADI
  • The Pantheon
  • ***
  • Posts: 1891
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2009, 11:29:48 AM »
I understand.

So if we would join a non-sov holding alliance wishing to take space how big a chance would they have considering the quite large chance the opponents have access to all minerals and probably at the very least a couple of capitals to support their defense?
I'm not against fighting and taking space :) it sounds fun imo or at least exciting.
But there needs to be a reasonable chance for success in such a venture for it to be attractive from a corp level imo.

Offline Rubino

  • Friends
  • The Pantheon
  • **
  • Posts: 1172
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2009, 11:43:59 AM »
So if we would join a non-sov holding alliance wishing to take space how big a chance would they have considering the quite large chance the opponents have access to all minerals and probably at the very least a couple of capitals to support their defense?

It can be done - but the new alliance having good relationships with an established alliance can allow you to call upon their resources during the foothold stage.
The chance of success comes down to good relationships (and follow through of support), good management, planning, intel and resources.

While Vac can't go into specifics - I think he's involved in something along these lines just with bigger fleets - maybe with the offer of candy he'll chip in with his thoughts.



Wii Console: 8123-9969-5753-1865

Offline vacuum

  • Friends
  • Cogniscenti
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • half man, half biscuit
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2009, 12:05:51 PM »
My thoughts.

This breaks down into three phases;

1. Credibility building
2. Establishment
3. Expansion

[Credibility Building]

We should join an alliance where we feel we can make a positive contribution; join something that's stable rather than nascent, and then learn our way around space. The north is notoriously stable ever since the great northern war, and MAX DAMAGE campaigns aside, areas like Branch, Tenal and Venal really don't get a whole lot of traffic.

What I do in the 'swarm is basically act either in fleet roles as an ECM specialist, or more often play insurgency roles in a cloaking ship inside enemy territory. This fits my playstyle, and I use ornan with his capships to be my cash source and mobility agent (esp once he gets on with the jump drive calibration set).

What I suggest you guys do is get further down the (cap) ship production route; get good at it with researched BPCs and then go offer that service to an established alliance; Morsus Mihi, TCF, will all have their producers, but for a small float you can probably get a piece of the action.

Pick a station system that's not a dead end near to you, make sure it's well stocked with materials and gear, use evemap to get somewhere that has half decent space, but to be honest at the beginning, you'll be lucky to get anywhere between -0.1 and -0.3. Go mine the hell out of the low-end high-ends that are available, and make it so that your station is a trade hub.

Take jita prices, and offer a small, perhaps 2-3% markup. Make some money on flow. If you're in an alliance where actually things are marketed at effective mineral prices, then forget the markup, do the pricing for good will, and make your money on self produced items, capships and rigs. People in rorquals and carriers, get those jump calibration skills up and get one or two guys into a jump freighter so you can bring in decent volumes of gear. When we get here, I'll start talking about WHAT people need in 0.0; but realistically, look at your alliances' fleet reimbursement policies and then bias towards those.

Mine and Buy minerals at a discount (especially if you're deep in 0.0, people will fill a buy order that's 60% of what they'd get in jita, purely because they don't have to carrier jump it 20 jumps - especially if they know that they'll be able to use that stuff as ships or modules).

Start going on alliance ops, don't let it interfere with the strategic plan, but if anyone has a flair for command, or covert operations, then let them indulge it to build stronger bridges with the alliance. Always monitor the alliance you're in for signs of flakiness or randomness.

[ Establishment ]
Once supply and demand stabilises, and that system becomes a bit of a trade hub because it's so well stocked (both in terms of services as well as in terms of goods - pick this station sensibly, caldari is probably the best type, then you want the associated services to be good, definitely a medical + refinery + repair + production - but you may not get that much luck) you look to take over the management of the station.

This is where real cash starts arriving because you take a small but useful cut - check for stations around and play oligarchy with this; set the same station refine tax as them - do what the petrol stations do; differentiate on services (strength of market) not core commodity.

At this point, start building caps seriously and get the alliance to put orders in - make sure the alliance you pick has a cap reimbursement programme - note that TCF have a LOT of cash from the southern dysprom moons they were taking advantage of for years, so as a result, I would bias towards them or MM - they are also very active in the european timezones; which means you won't have to worry about BoB (who are euro heavy). For every 5 or 6 alliance orders, put an order onto the main market, do this at a markup - approximately 30% over what you're selling to the alliance. This will get the 'just cashed in timecards'  mob, as well as the 'more ISK than I know what to do with' people.

[ Expansion ]

This is where things really start kicking off; start providing jump bridges built, maintained and fuelled by the corp; focus on getting POS mining deathstars in place, effectively become part of the infrastructure backbone of the alliance; maybe take on a second station system 'deeper in' (which also means more trusec). All of this will be tied to growth .... At this point (and probably before) people will want to join us in droves. Don't let them. Cherry pick people who will fit in and who have the right playstyle and background. Grow by growing on the forum, so continue to build the community around the forum, then let that trickle into the corp. Fast growth kills tightly knit groups quicker than anything; and we don't want all our hard work reverse taken over.


Offline Rubino

  • Friends
  • The Pantheon
  • **
  • Posts: 1172
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2009, 11:30:40 AM »
Some good thoughts there Vac - thanks.



Wii Console: 8123-9969-5753-1865

Offline Rubino

  • Friends
  • The Pantheon
  • **
  • Posts: 1172
    • View Profile
Re: Ma'adim: Direction?
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2009, 10:03:46 PM »
KIA have a relationship with UFA in Geminate.
I think the head of KIA is a guy that Beo doesn't have a high oppinion of...

So in terms of alliances and were to go - where does that leave us?



Wii Console: 8123-9969-5753-1865